Is this everyday sexism or am I being ludicrous?!

[harriethoyle]

Getting married (covid allowing) soon - very small ceremony. We have to apply for our marriage schedule and, on it, my DF is ie Tom Smith and I am Tina Jones formerly known as Jones. We are both divorced. I did not change my name first time around so have only ever been Jones my whole life.

This has really irrationally annoyed me! The assumption is because I was married before and am female, I changed my name but that assumption isn't applied to him. I rang the registrar and pointed this out. She said "It's because you're divorced." I said "we are both divorced. Why is he Tom Smith and I am Tina Jones formerly known as Jones when I have only EVER been Jones." She said "Well that's just the way the system works." I said "It's inappropriate to assume that I changed my name and it's incorrect to imply that I have." And she was completely perplexed by what the issue was.

When I told her that I wanted an email address so I could register my pleasure (I suspect she thinks me a Karen), she went off and checked with the senior registrar and then said that she COULD change it, despite having said it was the way the system worked. So now we are Tom Smith and Tina Jones. Which is correct!

Let's be honest, it's the tiniest blow ever struck against the patriachy but was I right to challenge what I saw as everyday sexism?

YABU - what a thing to expend energy on

YANBU - smash the patriachy one tiny blow at a time!

@DifficultPifcultLemonDifficult

Yabu to complain about perceived everyday sexism then use the term 'Karen'.

This. "Karen" is a massively sexist (and ageist) term.

But you were right about the assumption that you changed your name first time round but your other half did not.

@whatswithtodaytoday yes I appreciate men have, my own DH has doubled barrelled his.
I should have, worded my response that the majority of women do/did change their name upon marriage, with men less likely to do so.
Getting so wound up about it is still unreasonable though.

Yanbu good for you!

And for what it's worth, my baby has my surname, as when me and my partner marry he is taking my name,

So balls to the person who says men do not change their name.

Karen isn't a "term", it's my name, and the name of millions of women across the world who are now facing escalating levels of harassment and bullying because of misogynists like you, @harriethoyle.

Here, type your name into this website and see what it's like when people use your name as an insult. karenismyname.org/renamer

It is a sort of everyday sexism though really its just a legacy habit. The world is full of these minor examples eg 'women & children first' in emergencies, why not 'children and one parent first'. Perhaps in time these sort of habits will die out, maybe not. Not something I' bother about.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

YANBU. It's actually embarrassingly antediluvian and sexist (but I have to agree with PPs on the 'Karen' thing, too).

My DM sadly died in 2002. She was still legally married although separated from her ex, my father, who was an abusive and intimidating man against whom she was too afraid to start divorce proceedings in case she shoved a knitting needle into a gigantic hornet's nest and got stung. Having grown up with him I can say she had justification.

The registrar insisted her occupation be registered as 'wife of HusbandsName, HusbandsOccupation'. NOT as HerName, HerOccupation.

It might well be said that having been prostrate with grief over the death of a mum to whom I was incredibly close, and whose death had left me reeling, it would be the last consideration on my mind and I should have had better things to worry about. But that truly fucking hurt. Both she and I feared and loathed that monster, who had caused us nothing but misery when I was growing up. She had finally found courage to leave him and then only lived for five more years. I was outraged and complained in the strongest possible terms to the registrar.

The registrar told me no one had ever made such a complaint before (a thing I don't believe) and the death certificate was indeed registered as wife of HisName HisJob.

It's a document no one but me is ever likely to see. But I cringed in the face of it, not least because I knew how much my mother would have hated this. 15 years later that still rankles with me.

It shouldn't matter. In fact, her absence is the only thing that truly matters, as I still grieve for her and miss her every day of my life. But it does matter. It matters hugely, and in a way I can't even adequately define.

YANBU. At all.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks so sorry for your loss and your mother’s awful experience.

I am extremely surprised, however, to read about this because I thought that one of the major purposes of registration was to gather statistics about things like occupations- I am thinking of the way that occupations of both of the couple are put on to marriage certificates and then often discussed in programmes like “Who do you think you are?”

When I registered my mother’s death in Scotland in 2013 I remember giving her occupation then. Would be very interested to know if England (presumably that is where you are?) still records women by reference to husband’s occupation.

Unless you are saying it gave both her occupation and that if your father?

You were right to challenge it, OP. And I don't think focusing on the k-word is terribly helpful; you're quite right that, based on her behaviour, she may well view you through the lens of the misogynistic stereotype of the day.

It's shit to use a word to silence and dismiss a woman who dares stand up for her rights. Would people be complaining if you'd said she probably sees you as a feminist (oh the horror!)? Once upon a time that word had the same connotation.

@Neron not true that men don't change their names. It's less common but I work with someone who double barrelled with his wife's maiden name and my husband will do the same once our passports come up for renewal.

OP, your use of the term 'Karen' is not sexist in the slightest. Not by even 0.001%

YABU.

They are following the customary format, and at a guess I'd say their system is designed to include the maiden name of the woman, probably to facilitate records searches. Men rarely change their name at marriage, and a fair number of women do, so it needs to be possible to cross-reference.

In your case, you were Jones before, so the format just refers back to the same name. It's redundant, but not incorrect - Jones now, Jones then..

@harriethoyle

If it assists, had I been a man I would have said she perceived me as a Kevin 🤷🏻‍♀️ Guess it shows we're all wound up by different things!

Using a persons name as an insult is a reasonable thing to get wound up about.

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/womens_rights/4068015-Use-of-Karen-as-a-slur?msgid=101572306

@VladmirsPoutine It's leading to the harassment of thousands of women actually called Karen, funnily enough it's only happening to women.

Women do change their surnames upon marriage, men do not.

Not true. I know a man who has married twice and taken his wife's name each time.

Slightly off-topic here, but it's always angered me that a woman should be defined by her marital status (Mrs or Miss) whilst this doesn't apply to a man. I know it doesn't happen so much nowadays, thank goodness, but I've always thought there should be an alternative form of "Mr" to distinguish the bachelors from the husbands.

Hi @CheetasOnFajitas - no it set out the information as

HerFirstName HerSurname. Wife of HisFirstName HisSurname HisOccupation.

And that's it.

This was 2002.

It might be possible things have changed since then. I sincerely hope so. My child's birth certificate has both parents' names with both our occupations.

@Neron

YABU. Women do change their surnames upon marriage, men do not. Of course they will not assume that about a man. Go ahead and complain if it will make you feel better.

YABU and need to move with the times. I have three male friends who have taken their wife’s name on marriage. One is now divorced and has kept his married name.

@Bluntness100

Yes, I agree. I am called Karen and it’s very annoying

@Bluepolkadots42 @Ellie56 @MaskingForIt for you newcomers, I have said upthread, that I should have worded my response that most women did/do change their names, and men generally don't. For that, I was incorrect.

I'm not sure why women are so wound up about changing/not changing their name because in most cases their mother would have had a different surname before they married. How far back do we need to go.

Oh come on OP! Be honest, have you ever heard any man ever say, ' I'm unhappy about x but I don't want to be seen as Kevin'?

Never heard a man say this. Men being shamed into not complaining/ standing up for themselves is just not a thing.

However, I have heard women say, 'I'm unhappy about this but don't want to be seen as a Karen'. Karen is being used to shame women into not complaining or standing up for themselves, as you well know. As you used it to show you were assertive as you complained regardless of being thought a Karen if you did. Can you genuinely not see how the use of it means that it is being used to shame women into not making legitimate complaints, when you yourself used in exactly that context?

I'm not sure why women are so wound up about changing/not changing their name because in most cases their mother would have had a different surname before they married.

A good many posts above have clearly stated why. As does the thread title.

Ive known of more than one man to have changed his name upon marriage, so men do and can change their name - well anyone can at any time

so Id say it was sexist on both counts - for men and woman

@Neron

YABU. Women do change their surnames upon marriage, men do not. Of course they will not assume that about a man. Go ahead and complain if it will make you feel better.

My DP is changing his name to mine...so that's wrong.

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Hi *@CheetasOnFajitas* - no it set out the information as

HerFirstName HerSurname. Wife of HisFirstName HisSurname HisOccupation.

And that's it.

This was 2002.

It might be possible things have changed since then. I sincerely hope so. My child's birth certificate has both parents' names with both our occupations.

A quick look at gov U.K. suggests that they want the occupation of both the deceased and their spouse or civil partner, regardless of gender. That sounds better I think, even in a situation where you knew that your Mum Disney want to be associated with your Dad any more because it is still statistically relevant that they never divorced. What was of course wrong was stating only his occupation and not hers, but it does look like that has changed.

didn’t, obviously not Disney, apologies.