To have made DH apologise to DS?

[PleaseLetItBeNapTime]

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble...

I was in the kitchen making dinner. DS(4) has dinner at nursery and isn’t really hungry when he gets home so will just have fruit/ yoghurt/ crisps and be fine. DS decided that he wanted some wotsits. DS is particularly attached to the “rainbow” shaped ones and tends to leave them to the side and eat them last if he eats them at all. We’ve had tears before when he’s accidentally broken one. Rediculous I know, but he is only just 4 and he isn’t generally the sensitive type.

Anyway, DS is in the living room with DH and I hear him crying and he sounds inconsolable. I call him to the kitchen and he tells me “daddy’s eaten my rainbow”. DH follows and his attitude is so self righteous. I asked DH to apologise. He refused and said that DS’s reaction was disproportionate. I said he shouldn’t be eating DS’s crisps without asking. DH continues to refuse to say sorry, saying it’s not a big deal. I did tell DS that DH was being naughty at that point, which on reflection probably wasn’t appropriate. I told DH clearly it was a big deal for DS and he eventually says sorry and goes off in a huff. DS calms down, goes off to play, and is fine.

I asked DH to talk to me about the incident awhile later and he basically told me that he doesn’t believe I should have expected him to apologise to DS. He thinks I was out of line for labelling his behaviour as naughty and he was hurt that following the incident DS said he didn’t want to sit next to him.

I personally think the thought that he shouldn’t have to apologise is a form of toxic parenting - we need to mirror the behaviours we expect from DS and that includes admitting that we are wrong sometimes and apologising. DH has basically ignored me for the rest of the evening and still believes I’m wrong.

So WIBU? I’m genuinely interest to hear from people who think I was who can articulate why because I’m struggling to understand how DH is so firm in his position.

Thanks

@Jellycatspyjamas

He's 4. He's a tiny little boy, practically a baby. He's come home from nursery after a really long day of not seeing his mum and dad, and then he sits down, finds a perfect rainbow, and his dad eats it.

He’s not practically a baby, he could easily be in school and having to cope with much more than a pinched crisp. He’s certainly old enough to learn about proportional response.

This.

Infantilising children does them no good.

I still think if the gender roles were reversed and the OP's DH bollocked her in front of their child she's have been told he's was the bastard and she did nothing wrong

My DD is much younger than 4 but I still ask if I'm pinching some of her food (or I might do it in jokey way as a PP said but it would be slow enough that she could make it clear if she wasn't happy about it, she's good at sharing though so it isnt a problem). I think its really rude to just take the crisp and the fact it upset your DS yes he should apologise. Yes its just a wotsit and shouldn't be a big deal but it was a big deal to DS and a sorry doesn't cost anything. I say sorry to DD if I make her sad (doesn't mean i give in to her very whim just sorry its upset her but its the way it has to be sometimes). Maybe you shouldn't have called him naughty, but if DS had taken food from DP without asking would he be deemed naughty? If so then I dont see the problem!

Proportional response applies more to the dad.

He did the wrong thing knowing it would upset his son.

The right response would have been to say sorry.

I've read posts on here over the years where siblings used to take their food. And they said it was shit and made them feel insecure and had consequences like hoarding behaviour.

Yes this is just one crisp. But the general principle that you teach sharing and resilience by telling small kids that is y fine for people to help themselves to you stuff without asking and don't be so bloody precious is nonsense.

'DS had taken food from DP without asking would he be deemed naughty'

My guess is that would not go down well at all! What would be delicious that he might want to enjoy. Maybe put aside a particularly tasty bit of meat off the roast. A lovely succulent bit with salty crispy skin on it.

Son snaffles it while he's looking the other way.

Maybe he would say haha you took my stuff. Good one. Maybe....

@draughtycatflap

I know a mother who accidentally ate her child’s saved sacred rainbow wotsit. She reached down into her own stomach and ripped it back out.

That’s just what mother’s do.

Perfect description for what MN mothers do. They are all perfect, raising the key most emotionally sensitive children and all living with complete and utter bastard men. I wonder if there was a dadnset, how would OPs husband describe his wife.

@Jellycatspyjamas

He's 4. He's a tiny little boy, practically a baby. He's come home from nursery after a really long day of not seeing his mum and dad, and then he sits down, finds a perfect rainbow, and his dad eats it.

He’s not practically a baby, he could easily be in school and having to cope with much more than a pinched crisp. He’s certainly old enough to learn about proportional response.

Absolutely, this is part of the problem.

Once children are old enough to articulate themselves with words, they are old enough to be reasoned with at an age-appropriate level.

You shouldn't treat a 4-year-old as if they were 2 and a half and unable to learn proportional reactions.

Why is it wrong to say sorry to your child if you (deliberately or unthinkingly) upset them?

This thread needs to be in MN hall of fame, it’s so far detached from the real world.

Haven't rtft so this may well have come up before, but to those in Camp 'Just a Wotsit':

Imagine you're at the end of a knackering day at work, and have decided to treat yourself to your favourite meal. You're one of those people who like to save yourself a perfect mouthful for the very end - crispy bit of crackling, perfectly crunchy roast potato, whatever. Then your DH swoops in and nicks it without askung. THAT'S the equivalent situation here, and I'd say that anyone in that situation has a right to be pissed off (and to expect an apology).

@NiceGerbil

Why is it wrong to say sorry to your child if you (deliberately or unthinkingly) upset them?

I don't think it is, but equally think if the child is disproportionately upset about something very minor then it's good to try and help them see that.

In this case, it's not like his dad accidentally trod on his favourite toy and broke it - he's literally eaten a crisp.

Also, we don't know what OP's DP actually said to his son in between him starting to cry and then OP calling him into the kitchen to her. There could have been an explanation to DS already.

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

Haven't rtft so this may well have come up before, but to those in Camp 'Just a Wotsit':

Imagine you're at the end of a knackering day at work, and have decided to treat yourself to your favourite meal. You're one of those people who like to save yourself a perfect mouthful for the very end - crispy bit of crackling, perfectly crunchy roast potato, whatever. Then your DH swoops in and nicks it without askung. THAT'S the equivalent situation here, and I'd say that anyone in that situation has a right to be pissed off (and to expect an apology).

It would be a bit annoying, but demanding an apology would be OTT.

OP's child needs to learn that sometimes people do things that are a bit annoying or even unfair, but you need to choose your battles in life. A crisp isn't worth making a fuss over.

It’s not whether he’s should apologise or not, it’s the OP turning it into a drama. To tell your spouse off in front of your child, to call him naughty then make him speak about the “incident” later is overkill in the extreme and tells her son his dad can’t be trusted because mummy knows best (and the OP has clearly said on this thread that she regularly intervenes because she thinks her parenting skills are superior). That behaviour is way, way worse than dad pinching his sons crisp.

How will dad ever learn how to interact with his son and resolve conflict if the child knows mum is waiting in the wings to admonish dad and take over the situation.

If anything the OP owes dad an apology for undermining him and overstepping his boundaries but I don’t imagine that will be forthcoming.

'spoiled brat', 'snow flake', 'hand your child a grip'.... 'not doing your child any favours'. Dear god. No wonder so many kids grow up resentful of how they were treated as children. These are children.

4/5 olds cannot learn proportionality and 'getting a grip'. The aim of this sort of education is emotional self regulation. It is a long and winding road to achieve this.

A 4 yr old cannot self regulate. They just arent there developmentally. If they stop 'overreacting' when they perceive a trusted adult to have behaved badly by them, you have not achieved 'teaching' them to reason and self regulate. You have taught them that if they show that response either nothing will happen or they will be made to feel worse. It is much like 'controlled crying' does not 'teach' sleep.

No parent is perfect. OP could have handled this better. Im certainly not perfect. But thinking you are super for not 'coddling' a 4 yr old child and 'teaching' resilience? Nope thats just the easy way out with a pinch of virtue signalling.

Imagine if the dad had written this. He would be accused of being emotionally abusive towards OP by nitpicking and undermining her in front of their son.

Its a family unit we all share food. What happened to the sharing is caring moto. Im sorry but this is supposed to be a family. Yes dad should have asked if he could have a Wotsit and no doubt the child would have given it to him. But the fact you said that dad is naughty, essentially puts the father in a very low rank in the eyes of the child. Call me old school if you wish, flame me if you want, but the family getting moody over a fecking Wotsit - Wow.

It was 1 crisp. YABU (so is your ds but he is 4).

@JesusInTheCabbageVan

Haven't rtft so this may well have come up before, but to those in Camp 'Just a Wotsit':

Imagine you're at the end of a knackering day at work, and have decided to treat yourself to your favourite meal. You're one of those people who like to save yourself a perfect mouthful for the very end - crispy bit of crackling, perfectly crunchy roast potato, whatever. Then your DH swoops in and nicks it without askung. THAT'S the equivalent situation here, and I'd say that anyone in that situation has a right to be pissed off (and to expect an apology).

It’s really not equivalent. Just open another packet of wotsits.

Yes in this thread I have given the example of DH eating my last Diwali barfi. Exactly that example.
My life didn’t fall apart. I rolled my eyes and made fun of his gluttony and got on with it.
Because he’s a lovely person who is considerate.

If I was crying over the last barfi and confronting DH over it then I think you can safely assume there would be other issues in our marriage.

If someone had nicked food from my hand, packet or whatever, I would be peeved and expect an apology.

Just because they are children, doesn't mean you don't have to have common courtesy.

WitchesSpelleas it would be interesting to start another thread along the lines of my scenario to see which way most people vote

If I did something like that to my DH, he'd be briefly pissed off and I would apologise. To me, picking battles means recognising when it's right to say sorry for upsetting someone. I think digging your heels in over an apology just sends the message that it's this momentous thing, which should only be done rarely and when it can't be avoided.I

(I grew up with a parent who was a serial food grabber, and my efforts to protect my favourite foods caused quite a few nasty arguments, so that may well have influenced my own views on the matter!)

'In this case, it's not like his dad accidentally trod on his favourite toy and broke it - he's literally eaten a crisp.'

He ate the crisp deliberately knowing his son was saving it...

I mean I'd love to think all the crisps I eat are accidentally falling into my mouth but I don't think it'll wash tbh

@Lucidas for an adult, yes, absolutely.

Four year olds don't see it that way though, because they aren't born with fully-formed adult brains.

@Jellycatspyjamas

I didn’t say that I regularly intervene. I do intervene but it’s not regularly. I have apologised.

@ChaBishkoot - but you’re not 4. You’re acting like I was getting upset because it was my wotsit. I don’t even like them.

No I am not. But as I said, if my 4 year old got upset, I would find ways to distract and move on. I wouldn’t make a huge deal of it.

It’s possible to acknowledge their sadness and not minimise their sense of sorrow without demanding DH apologises.

Kids get nuance.