To have made DH apologise to DS?

[PleaseLetItBeNapTime]

Sorry if this is a bit of a ramble...

I was in the kitchen making dinner. DS(4) has dinner at nursery and isn’t really hungry when he gets home so will just have fruit/ yoghurt/ crisps and be fine. DS decided that he wanted some wotsits. DS is particularly attached to the “rainbow” shaped ones and tends to leave them to the side and eat them last if he eats them at all. We’ve had tears before when he’s accidentally broken one. Rediculous I know, but he is only just 4 and he isn’t generally the sensitive type.

Anyway, DS is in the living room with DH and I hear him crying and he sounds inconsolable. I call him to the kitchen and he tells me “daddy’s eaten my rainbow”. DH follows and his attitude is so self righteous. I asked DH to apologise. He refused and said that DS’s reaction was disproportionate. I said he shouldn’t be eating DS’s crisps without asking. DH continues to refuse to say sorry, saying it’s not a big deal. I did tell DS that DH was being naughty at that point, which on reflection probably wasn’t appropriate. I told DH clearly it was a big deal for DS and he eventually says sorry and goes off in a huff. DS calms down, goes off to play, and is fine.

I asked DH to talk to me about the incident awhile later and he basically told me that he doesn’t believe I should have expected him to apologise to DS. He thinks I was out of line for labelling his behaviour as naughty and he was hurt that following the incident DS said he didn’t want to sit next to him.

I personally think the thought that he shouldn’t have to apologise is a form of toxic parenting - we need to mirror the behaviours we expect from DS and that includes admitting that we are wrong sometimes and apologising. DH has basically ignored me for the rest of the evening and still believes I’m wrong.

So WIBU? I’m genuinely interest to hear from people who think I was who can articulate why because I’m struggling to understand how DH is so firm in his position.

Thanks

GlummyMcGlummerson

Yep. Absolutely spoiled brats.

It's a wotsit.

JFC.

When I pinch my kids crisps they say "Oi you greedy" or similar and laugh. And vice versa. I may even chase them in the pretence of getting the crisp back, while they shove it in their mouths laughing at me and saying haha.

I didn't realise that I had to be so very serious and every tiny little incident has to be about bOunDAriEs - I can't imagine what utterly boring households you live in if you use every action as an opportunity to teach lessons/boundaries/modelling behaviour. UNCLENCH. It's fun.

One thing I've learn a a mum and teacher - parents very much pass anxiety on to their kids and if you're constantly worried if you've overstepped boundaries with tiny everyday actions like nabbing a crisp, while you think you're doing good you are actually setting them up to fail.

See I think this is exactly what I'm talking about. You've turned me thinking kids should be respected and boundaries are important, into us all living in a humourless and boring home, me being terribly anxious about upsetting me kids re crisps, unclench etc etc. Your anger that I don't agree with you is palpable.

Not at all - we laugh loads. Nowhere did I say, as is being straw-manned all over this thread, that the child would be traumatised, that you should obsess over the learning potential of every tiny incident, that you should teach kids to be inconsolable over a crisp.

I absolutely think you should help kids learn to take things in their stride, that some things aren't worth crying about and you have to learn to rub along with others. All that is obviously a huge part of raising a 4yo.

I think you can do that and respect their feelings at the same time. Apologise if you've been a dick and upset them. Understand they may place a lot of value on something you don't.

As for what you're teaching your kids, is it to sneer at, straw-man and bully anyone who doesn't agree with you or who isn't as on board with funny jokey food-snatching as you are? Because that's the message they'll get.

Kids can appear resilient and thick-skinned and be developing self-esteem problems inside because they know they're not allowed to disagree or have their own preferences.

Respecting that a child has feelings and preferences doesn't mean wrapping them up in cotton wool or letting them rule the roost. It's just about learning normal human respect for each other.

I think the key point here is whether your DH knows that your son likes to treasure his 'rainbows'. If he does, and he ate them regardless, knowing he was going to get upset, that is absolutely horrible.

He's 4. He's a tiny little boy, practically a baby. He's come home from nursery after a really long day of not seeing his mum and dad, and then he sits down, finds a perfect rainbow, and his dad eats it.

We all know how attached 4yos can get to things, and why should that be any different to horrible dirty blankets and over-loved soft toys?

If your DH knew he would be upset and still did this, he was absolutely well out of order and should apologise to your little boy.

If he doesn't know he loves them so much he still shouldn't have done it, and should still apologise, but it's not quite as disgusting.

But if I made a 4yo cry I would have apologised there and then, and helped him find a new rainbow.

Just because he is a child doesn't mean he's any less entitled to an apology when he's been wronged.

Yes, it seems to have all been blown out of proportion for a Wotsit, but that's kind of not the point, as the meaning of it was much greater for your son than it could have been for any of us.

Your anger that I don't agree with you is palpable.I'm really not angry, sorry, I simply disagree with you. Besides my comments aren't even aimed at you specifically, I don't even recall what you've said previously.

I absolutely think you should help kids learn to take things in their stride, that some things aren't worth crying about and you have to learn to rub along with others. All that is obviously a huge part of raising a 4yo.

I think you can do that and respect their feelings at the same time. Apologise if you've been a dick and upset them. Understand they may place a lot of value on something you don't.

Yes, I agree

As for what you're teaching your kids, is it to sneer at, straw-man and bully anyone who doesn't agree with you or who isn't as on board with funny jokey food-snatching as you are? Because that's the message they'll get

Who is teaching them that what an odd assumption. taking a crisp doesn't make you a dick. the OP's son, even at 4, had a disproportional reaction to what actually happened, and the fact it was blown into such a huge drama with one parent being totally undermined did more damage than if she'd just encourage her son to brush it off and move on

And to everyone who keeps saying "it's just a wotsit", way to totally miss the point.

If a man grabs your boob at work and you complain, is it a reasonable defence that "it was just one little grab"? If someone steals your £5 ring that has sentimental value, is that fine because it's not a large-value item? No, because being a dick is being a dick. It's about how you're making the person feel.

@ShadyBansheeThing

And to everyone who keeps saying "it's just a wotsit", way to totally miss the point.

If a man grabs your boob at work and you complain, is it a reasonable defence that "it was just one little grab"? If someone steals your £5 ring that has sentimental value, is that fine because it's not a large-value item? No, because being a dick is being a dick. It's about how you're making the person feel.

Things that women's bodies are compared with today - crisps, and fivers

You think that taking his son's wotsit is the same as sexually assaulting someone?

Really?

This thread really is the gift that keeps on giving

Yes, OP got angry and tyhat's not ideal. But it was the H who made it worse by not apologising and being kind, which he should have done without being asked.

You are right, he is wrong.

No, because being a dick is being a dick. It's about how you're making the person feel.

So if I don’t feel particularly upset when a man grabs my boob, does that make it not a sexual assault?

You think that taking his son's wotsit is the same as sexually assaulting someone?

No oif course it's not the SAME. It;s a comparison, and if you compared to things that were exactly the same, it wouldn't be a comparison, would it?

The point is, if I give you a different example, that you can understand, you can see that the actual amount of wrongdoing being small, doesn't change that fact that it can be upsetting.

I didn't actually have to explain that, did I. You're not that dim. You're straw-manning again by saying I think they're the same thing. That you can't understand an analogy or comparison. "Really?" etc.

@ShadyBansheeThing

Yes, OP got angry and tyhat's not ideal. But it was the H who made it worse by not apologising and being kind, which he should have done without being asked.

Absolutely this. He should have apologised instantly and given him a cuddle. End of story. By refusing to apologise he has disregarded his sons feelings which showed later when his son wouldn't sit next to him.

@Bibidy

At what point do we say "actually we are now going to stop pandering to the tiny whims and you'll have to just deal with inconsequential things to at happen day to day" - 5? 8? 18?

Bingo. I have a child in my family who has been liable to tantrums and sulks over small things since forever and because it has never been tackled properly she is now still the same at nearly 7 and will feign tears over the smallest things.

It hasn't done her any favours to pander for so long.

Yes exactly, I imagine some children of posters here are the same, but rather than identify this is a child who has never learned to cope, they congratulate themselves on never ever having over stepped boundaries (when actually they're mistaking "boundaries" for "a child not getting their way").

Also can I just say it's an unbelievably privileged issue - a child getting upset over a crisp, and everybody falling over themselves to make them feel better.I wonder how many children in less fortunate circumstances and places - the ones with real issues - living in developing countries, living in poverty, abuse victims, trafficking victims - see the taking of a crisp as such a tragedy. I quite imagine that they have bigger things to worry about and probably knock the theory of "it's a genuinely heartbreaking thing that a child has a crisp taken off him"

Think your husband definitely was an arse but you failed to show unity in front of your son.

My husband has often been an arse. I give that feedback outside the heat of the moment and he invariably puts it right.

What this means is sometimes he made a harsh or stupid parenting decision to the kids and I remained silent at the time. I then would tear him a new arsehole when the kids were out of earshot.

The kids grew up believing they had a dad who always came back and apologised if he had made a bad decision in the heat of a moment. They respect him for that, and he wasn't made impotent as a parent by mum criticising him when something kicked off.

@flaviaritt

No, because being a dick is being a dick. It's about how you're making the person feel.

So if I don’t feel particularly upset when a man grabs my boob, does that make it not a sexual assault?

Exactly!! Similarly, if I do something perfectly normal and reasonable, like give someone a dinosaur plate when they want a Princess plate and they get upset, why is the onus to feel bad on me because they're so ridiculously oversensitive?

It’s really really not about how you make someone feel. Follow that guidance and you’re setting yourselves up for manipulative relationships (either on the giving or receiving end).

MiL wanted to throw me a large birthday party last year. I politely declined. She felt upset and hurt. That’s not my responsibility.

We can all draw a line somewhere at what we consider an objectively ‘unjust action’ (40% disagree with OP so it’s certainly not a fringe parenting opinion). But we surely all agree that someone feeling hurt is not in itself sufficient to warrant an apology from their perceived aggressor.

@ShadyBansheeThing

You think that taking his son's wotsit is the same as sexually assaulting someone?

No oif course it's not the SAME. It;s a comparison, and if you compared to things that were exactly the same, it wouldn't be a comparison, would it?

The point is, if I give you a different example, that you can understand, you can see that the actual amount of wrongdoing being small, doesn't change that fact that it can be upsetting.

I didn't actually have to explain that, did I. You're not that dim. You're straw-manning again by saying I think they're the same thing. That you can't understand an analogy or comparison. "Really?" etc.

But you don't compare apples and oranges. Two totally different issues that are utterly incomparable and as a child rape victim I find it fucking offensive that you even went there

There's a difference between sharing and taking.

So it was sharing when my brother used to help himself to my stuff without asking and often ruin it.

Good to know :/

It’s really really not about how you make someone feel. Follow that guidance and you’re setting yourselves up for manipulative relationships (either on the giving or receiving end).

MiL wanted to throw me a large birthday party last year. I politely declined. She felt upset and hurt. That’s not my responsibility

Spot on!! I refuse to feel bad or apologise for perfectly reasonable actions that has upset someone for ridiculous reasons. That's not how normal relationships should work.

Would anyone expect a woman to apologise to her husband for chatting to a male colleague, because her husband is "naturally jealous" and it hurt his feelings?

Again, not true. I despair over parents who let their child get their way all the time, and the resulting bratty behaviour. I know quite a lot of them and they see me as relatively strict because I'm prepares to say no.

It's not about spoiling, it's about basic respect. Why is that so hard to grasp? Why are you so sure that a parent who respects their child's feelings about saving a special crisp, is an anxious, pandering, moddlycoddling snowflake-raiser? They're just not the same type of thing.

This child wasn't demanding his own way at all. When kids do that, yes they need to learn they don't always get it.

He was minding his own business enjoying his crisps and saving a special one, totally normal and non-spoilt behaviour for a 4yo. His dad took the special one without asking, and then didn't care that he was upset. That's shit. It's obviously not the worst thing in the world ever to happen, it just shows a shit and uncaring attitude.

Right I apologise for the boob grabbing comparison.

I'm also a childhood sexual assault survivor and I did not see it as offensive. It was simply making the point that obsessing over how big or small the actual item in question is, is not necessarily the most relevant thing. I should have used a different comparison.

All this over one yes one watsit!! Its hilarious!!!!!!!

I think the difference is in how DH initially reacted. DH takes something DS wanted. DS says "you just took it, I wanted it" DH says "oh sorry pal I should have asked first, I didn't realise you were saving it, but I'm sorry" then DS either accepts apology and moves on or doesn't, if he doesn't then hes told he's over reacting, daddy apologised and it's just a crisp.
But DH didn't apologise so the problem wasn't that he took the crisp but that he wasn't nice to DS when he upset him

As above!

My son is 4 yes. Crisps aren't a treat as such, they'll have a pack at the weekend usually. TBH if he made a big fuss over one crisps I wouldn't apologise no, I'd tell him it's only a crisp there's plenty of other on his plate. I'd remind him he takes mine and his sisters all the time and we are happy with that. Absolutely nothing wrong with handing your children a grip now and again.

Different scenario

This ws a particular thing which OP's DS had put aside to enjoy at the end of his packet of Wotsits as a treat for himself.

He was looking forward t it, and actually, it was an exercise in delayed gratification. If you had put aside something- anything, large or small as a treat for yourself, and someone came along and took it without even asking, and then didn't apologise, you wouldn't like it. None of us would.

And if it happened frequently you would eat whatever it was straight away before it was taken from you, because you would fear losing it. That is how you raise a child who bolts his food and is reluctant to share anything.

His dad took a worst knowing DS had been looking forward to it; he didn't accept that he'd done anything unkind and didn't want to apologise. That isn't fair. Children need to be reassured of the fairness of things before they can learn to cheerfully share.

Well I'm way over 50 and if ANYONE took something of mine that i had put aside for whatever reason without asking i would have made a big fuss.

And because i hold a grudge and am vindictive i would have picked my moment and done the same thing if they had gone down the route of "it's of no significance"

He's 4, rainbow Wotsits are a thing for him. His dad was incredibly rude.

He's 4. He's a tiny little boy, practically a baby. He's come home from nursery after a really long day of not seeing his mum and dad, and then he sits down, finds a perfect rainbow, and his dad eats it.

He’s not practically a baby, he could easily be in school and having to cope with much more than a pinched crisp. He’s certainly old enough to learn about proportional response.