"Professional work clothes" are you f**king kidding me

[Wroxie]

Sorry this is more of a rant than a question because I know I'm not the one BU here.

So I'm a freelancer and about half my income comes from a single client. I do lots of workshops and training sessions on Zoom with them. This morning after a 2 hour workshop I was having a debrief with my main contact and he said 'just one more thing, it would be great if you could reflect the business wear standards we present during these sessions' and I was gobsmacked because - no word of a lie - HE AND I WERE WEARING THE SAME SHIRT. The exact same dark blue and white small-checked button down shirt with the top button undone. I also had on small earrings and a little pearl pendant on a fine chain and my hair was in a tidy bun. I would even venture to say that my shirt was ironed more nicely than his - he's generally sort of rumpled looking at the best of times.

When I was office-based, this was basically my uniform - button-down shirt, smart trousers, sometimes a jacket, nice brogues or maybe nice flats if it was ankle-baring weather. This is now what I wear every day in front of my computer at home except for the shoes. Yes, I even wear the smart work trousers because I often stand up to do something on my whiteboard and I can be seen from the knees up on camera.

The other women at this company (finance, if it matters) tend to wear solid, dark-colour tops with round necklines and maybe a chunky necklace, along with full makeup and blowdried hair. I don't wear makeup at all and my hair is natural (I'm mixed race - half Black, half European) and worn in a curly bob or in a bun depending on where I am in the wash-day cycle. So what it comes down to is that my natural face and hair and my choice of business wear would be ok if I were a man, but since I'm not... different standards. I almost wish I was an actual employee rather than a freelance consultant so I could make this into a WHOLE THING.

As it stands, I just said 'Tony mate you realise we're wearing the same shirt' and he blustered a bit and said something like 'well you just seemed a bit casual Friday today is all I mean' and I just let it drop.

Should I wear my 20+ year old Nirvana T-shirt next meeting yes or no?

I don’t think he’ll mention it again. Nice riposte.

Tony mate you realise we're wearing the same shirt

You absolute hero. This will pop into my head at the slightest whiff of sexism for all of my days. I will probably say it too and it won't make sense in the context but who the fuck cares.

God actually can you get that printed on a t shirt and wear that???

I wear my work uniform for zoom calls. But then I’m a professor, so that’s basically the Nirvana shirt. Sometimes with a dressing gown on top if it’s cold. I did a governmental briefing the other day like this. :)

@AryaStarkWolf

Has there really been a case of a black man told his hair must be straightened to look professional?

Not that I can see but straightening your hair is more gender specific, there have been cases where black men have been told to cut their hair though

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.nbcnews.com/news/amp/ncna1120731

Here is an example of a black teen being told to cut his hair

I have had this, and it was a veiled reference to the fact that I don't wear make up. Which became more apparent when i was told that a bit of lippy would 'brighten up' my face. I was a 25 year old trainee solicitor at the time, and i wore suits and tied my hair back-looked perfectly presentable. I didnt say anything then; I'd laugh in his face now! If your hair was tied back then i would bet it was a reference to make up, although if your hair had been loose then I agree I would have thought racism and sexism...

@SummerHouse

Tony mate you realise we're wearing the same shirt

You absolute hero. This will pop into my head at the slightest whiff of sexism for all of my days. I will probably say it too and it won't make sense in the context but who the fuck cares.

God actually can you get that printed on a t shirt and wear that???

Genius suggestion

Ffs!!! I am gobsmacked at this man!!!!

another vote for smash the patriarchy. plus I 100% agree with @fairynick about the racism. i know you're a freelancer but is there an adult you could complain to anyway?

In my experience curly hair and lack of make up is still considered not smart enough. I am also mixed race and wear no or minimal make up.

And the looks and comments I get are mainly from women

'Tony mate you realise we're wearing the same shirt.'

OP, you are genius.

Like a PP, I too am going to use this response when faced with sexism. Like I say 'Don't call ME a lovely girl, I've sold twenty million records' when creepy men refer to me as 'lovely'.

(From the Father Ted episode with the feminist singer, obv. Thank you @glinner!)

hitOnIt00 T
I have curly hair (and I'm mixed white/black) and I know that curly hair is often the problem. To some, it isn't smart/professional. It nees to be flat and sleek to pass some standards! (I don't straighten mine either)

You don't have to be mixed race to come across this prejudice, I am convinced curly hair, which I have , is discriminated against. I had a business partner who INSISTED I get my hair straightened for business meetings. We argued a lot about this. Her hair, which was also curly naturally, had been straightened so often it looked like straw and awful in my opinion, yet she thought she looked better than me!!! Look at Julia Roberts and Nicole Kidman just two famous women who have naturally frizzy curly hair, mine is J. R. like. It does make me annoyed. BTW hairdressers love long curly thick hair. ! Also great for halloween, quick backcomb and you can thread plastic snakes through and you are MEDUSA!!

@HarryLimeFoxtrot

Over the years I’ve realised that for any given dress code I have to be at least a degree (and typically two degrees) smarter than a man dressed according to the equivalent dress code. It annoys me no end. If a shirt and chinos is OK for a man, then why do I need to be in a skirt and heels?

funnily enough I work in an industry where it is the total opposite. Not unheard of to see a man in a 3 piece and women in basic dark dress, jacket and even god forbid flats

I don't own a pair of heels - never got into footwear that I can't walk in and that damages my kinetic chain. But then I work in STEM.

If any man asked if I wasn't wearing heels I'd ask if they are so great why don't YOU wear them.

Thing is, part of my AS means I value comfort and utility more than image - never got on with pencil skirts or wearing anything tailored if I sitting down all day.

He probably wanted you to wear "typically female clothes". That was his real agenda.

"Here is an example of a black teen being told to cut his hair"

But not straightened. I've provided a couple of examples of longhaired boys being told to get their hair cut. We know it happened; we know it's been happening for years.

What I wanted was an example of a man or boy, black or white, being told to get his hair straightened, because that's the expectation that an awful lot of posters are citing and that's why I believe this is a sexist demand only made to women.

Tell him you are allergic to makeup, pretty much everything, hypoallergenic (deep laugh) too, as I am. If he would prefer red patches and a fair bit of scratching... it is unacceptable to think that all women want to wear makeup. And some even can’t do so.

Some people view curly hair as untidy. I have curly hair that becomes a big frizz if I brush it between washes. I try to dampen it and add product each morning then finger comb and scrunch, then I just clip the sides back or side-part it and clip so the curls look more ‘deliberate’ and styled.

It’s a shame curls/waves are seen like this. I can’t be bothered to straighten mine often. If I put it in a bun I get a halo of frizz, if I leave it down it looks like I’ve just woken up and I’ve had the odd snide comment about ‘bed head hair’ or not brushing it!

I hope attitudes to hair change one day.

@JohnMcCainsDeathStare

I don't own a pair of heels - never got into footwear that I can't walk in and that damages my kinetic chain. But then I work in STEM.

If any man asked if I wasn't wearing heels I'd ask if they are so great why don't YOU wear them.

Thing is, part of my AS means I value comfort and utility more than image - never got on with pencil skirts or wearing anything tailored if I sitting down all day.

Same here - DMs and trousers all the way. Don't think I've worn a skirt since the noughties. No makeup either. Never had any complaints since the 80s, and the 1992 revisions to H&S legislation certainly helped.

That's worn a skirt full stop, home & work. Certainly never worn one at work for almost 20 years.

Back in the early 90s I worked in a professional environment where women were not allowed to wear trousers and flat shoes were frowned upon. At your annual appraisal you were scored on your appearance and I knew colleagues who were told they needed makeup. I thought we had moved on from those days but clearly Tony didn't get that message.

Oh.

Wear a tie next time?

Read this yesterday with rage at the racism and sexism. But coming back to it, I'm wondering if it's an internal Vs external thing? If he were speaking to a client on a zoom call, would he be adding a tie and jacket?

It may be that he views your position as that of someone presenting to a client (which you are), and that they would dress smarter to do the same rather than sitting in an internal meeting (which they are).

@ShitOnIt00

I have curly hair (and I'm mixed white/black) and I know that curly hair is often the problem. To some, it isn't smart/professional. It nees to be flat and sleek to pass some standards! (I don't straighten mine either)

Curly hair isn't the problem imo, the people who think curly hair isn't 'professional' are the problem!

If Tony wasn't on camera he may think that a buttoned shirt is casual, without a jacket OR was your 2nd and 3rd button gaping, show a bit of bra on occasion!???

Whilst I think it's more likely a lack of make-up perhaps combined with your bun hairstyle (rather than Princess Di styled) I'd have a non-confrontational word with Tony via email so that he can explain what his problem is.

Your outfit is pretty standard, professional, client-facing business wear for women and has been for a couple of decades!

How old is Tony?