to think that not having friends isn't that unusual

[faginssidekick]

AIBU to think that this isn't actually all that unusual in this day and age when people have moved away from their families, have smaller families and work such long hours or have a long commute? At the school gate people (pre covid) seem to stand on their own and not engage with others and children going round to other's houses to play seems to be a rarer thing than it used to be a few years ago? Mine were always in and out of other's houses when they were younger as we lived in a road with a lot of similar aged children but that doesn't seem to happen any more. Obviously that's before this year and covid.

But what if your dp dies. What if your adult children dont want to be your emotional crutch?

As an introvert I think it's VITAL that I maintain a few friends. It's so important for mental health...meaningful relationships are everything to humans.

I feel like this really. My mum is antisocial (dad less so, he still has a childhood friend he speaks to regularly) and has been perfectly happy shielding and not mixing with anyone - has no friends at all and seems absolutely fine with that. However it means that she will use any excuse to ring either me or my sister for a chat.

Me and my sister say that if God forbid either of them died during the pandemic we would have no problem with the 30 people funeral limit, in fact we'd struggle to think of that many people to invite.

Puzzlelover makes a really good point.

I've noticed quite a hard-line attitude towards friendships on here sometimes which goes along the lines of if someone isn't there for you for absolutely everything and they aren't always the first person you call, they're not a "friend".

I think its unnecessarily black and white. There is this widely-held theory that people rarely have more than 3 or 4 proper "friends" and the rest are just acquaintances and there's a degree of truth in that but people take it to extremes.

You see posts on here all the time where someone has blown an OP out once for a night out and the response will be something like "she's not a friend. Move on". It's so melodramatic and controlling. Life just isn't that simple.

Friendships change over time: I've got 30+ year friendships with people who I can go for long periods without seeing, mainly for logistics reasons, but we still know we love one another. You can't expect all your friends to be glued to you in perpetuity: life gets in the way. Friendships also come in all shapes and sizes and you don't need everyone in your life to be the sort of person you call at 4am if you're having a tiff with your spouse.

I think some people need to have a bit more of an open-minded interpretation of what a friend is and let go of some of this.

I can do chitchat with all and sundry. I can't seem to keep friends the way some do. I am always perplexed by people on MN posting about socialising etc in groups. It's very much 1 to 1 since uni days. Which seems fairly standard with people I know IRL. Group outings and holidays with friends seem the preserve of cheap soaps and MNetters

This!
I see a lot of "Oh yeah we do that in our friendship group"
"So I sent a message to our friendship group WhatsApp the other day...."

😳 These are grown women

@DC3Dakota sorry I don’t understand. Why is it childish to have groups of friends as an adult? What makes it odd for “grown women” to have conversations or meet ups with more than one person at a time?

But what if your dp dies. What if your adult children dont want to be your emotional crutch?

I will cross that bridge when i come to it.

And i would never expect my adult dc to be my emotional crutch.

I think people with loads of friends dont realise when you dont have any you are self relient.

As i said before i used to have loads of friends, weekends away.

But i wasghosted by 1 friend and i decided one day not to be the one that makes arrangements and ask all the time.

So that was about 6 ears ago.It hurt but it made me realise they where just using me,when they had nobody else.Im much happier now.

Interesting thread. I'm an expat and live in a very transient place. Even though we've lived here for years, it's a constant effort to keeping meeting new people and trying to find your new tribe.

I'm about to move back to the UK and to an area that I don't know a soul. I'm really hoping my years of having to make an effort, not being afraid to start conversations (wether I know you or not) or asking people over for drinks after just having met them, doesn't scare the shit out of them and they think I'm some sort of weirdo 🤪

Making new friends in the UK is one of my biggest fears. Fingers crossed having the kids and enjoying copious amounts of gin points me in the right direction of new girlfriends!! 🤣

BorderlineHappy

"I think people with loads of friends dont realise when you dont have any you are self relient.

As i said before i used to have loads of friends, weekends away.

But i wasghosted by 1 friend and i decided one day not to be the one that makes arrangements and ask all the time.

So that was about 6 ears ago.It hurt but it made me realise they where just using me,when they had nobody else.Im much happier now."

I see this attitude increasingly on MN and I find it bizarre and self-destructive. With great respect, I think this approach won't serve you well.

You've been ghosted or poorly treated by a friend once and you seem to have extrapolated out from this that friendship is a bad thing and all your friends are using you? Seems really punitive. It's a bit like having dated one bad bloke who messed you around and deciding that all men are wankers.

Also it is possible to have friends and also be self-reliant. Millions of introverts do it...

Someone else mentioned upthread this "competitive friendlessness" which seems to have accelerated massively under lockdown and its very odd and slightly unhealthy. This sense that a bunker mentality consisting of a couple and their kids versus the rest of the world is a good way to live. I don't get it.

I think people have a slightly warped idea of what friendship is: friendship should be supportive and nourishing but its not meant to be like a marriage. People seem very willing to blow up friendships because of fairly minor infractions and even to swear off the idea of friendship altogether because they've had one bad experience.

It's understandable to feel hurt if a friend treats you badly but to jump from that to "I'm never having a friend again" seems a very damaging way to deal with this.

Where has this idea come from?

@Readandwalk

Possibly as people without friends are judged. I mean it's odd. Have they no social skills? How can anyone had a partner if they can't have the commitment that friendship requires. Think about if if someone came here saying my new date has no friends and has no need for them. Everyone would say "RED FLAG". If a child had no friends, another worrying situation so this sense of pride in being friendless dumbfounds me. I mean as a feminist ( which most people here say they are) surely meaningful connections with other women is essential. I know 2 people in RL without friends and both have scared or pissed people off so much no one wants to be with them. Yet this site is full of the friendless but proud types.

I'd be deeply worried myself.

Yes, I agree. I have one friend, a former colleague, who (as I discovered after I'd been friends with him for a while, as I mostly saw him for lunch or a drink around workdays) had no other friends other than me. He is a lovely, interesting, clever, funny man, but I realised after a while, that the people he talked about were his undergraduate friends (he's in his fifties!), whom he'd barely talked to since his student days -- he's just lazy and passive about friendships when the person is no longer in front of him or phoning him up, and to be honest, it is indicative of his passivity in other areas of his life.

And I'm always interested in how often the people who claim to be entirely friendless all their lives, or at least for many years, have a partner or husband, or have had in the past do those people see romantic/sexual relationships as an entirely different domain to that of friendships? I find that quite strange as to me they're certainly related, though obviously not the same, and I've certainly had people in my life who've moved category when one relationship of a year and a half ended amiably a long time ago, I remained on good friendship terms with my ex.

The other thing I always find odd about these threads is that the people who say 'I'm happier without friends, couldn't handle the drama/don't want two-faced people in my life etc' are describing nothing like any friendship I've ever had. Friendships are important to me, and I've moved around a lot, so have had to make new friends regularly throughout my adult life, but I've never, with any of them, endured the backstabbing, exclusions, exploitation or other unpleasantness the people who say they've sworn off friendships describe.

As a kid I had a lot of friends, was one of the popular group. Hoping my child will be the same. After school I moved around a lot, have been up and down the country so it’s hard for friendships to last. I have nearly all acquaintances.
I am an introvert too but with a very sociable job - I work long days with lots of different people in a public-facing role. I don’t struggle with that at all, but sometimes am fed up with people by the end of the day and am glad to get away. I do keep in touch with people over Facebook regularly and have met up but if they cancel I’m rarely disappointed. I have many hobbies I don’t get time to do, so am happy being alone or with DP or family at the weekend. If you’re happy with how your life is I don’t see the problem.

GrandUnion

Agree with every word of your post. Particularly this:

"The other thing I always find odd about these threads is that the people who say 'I'm happier without friends, couldn't handle the drama/don't want two-faced people in my life etc' are describing nothing like any friendship I've ever had."

I find it profoundly depressing that people associate friendship with drama/being two-faced/backstabbing and it makes me think that these people just haven't had good enough friends in their life.

Also, how can you get to a situation where you think a friendship is full of back-stabbing and drama but a sexual/romantic relationship isn't? You see all these comments along the lines of "my DH is all I need" and "family first" etc. I'm baffled by this.

Surely a relationship based on sexual coupling and child-rearing has a much higher risk of this than a friendship with someone of the same sex based on camaraderie and shared interests?

I genuinely don't understand this. I would be prepared to be that most of the time when people trot this out what they actually mean is that they don't want to have good friendships with other women because their spouse is threatened by it.

I would be prepared to bet not be. Bloody illiterate that I am.

@thepeopleversuswork

Puzzlelover makes a really good point.

I've noticed quite a hard-line attitude towards friendships on here sometimes which goes along the lines of if someone isn't there for you for absolutely everything and they aren't always the first person you call, they're not a "friend".

I think its unnecessarily black and white. There is this widely-held theory that people rarely have more than 3 or 4 proper "friends" and the rest are just acquaintances and there's a degree of truth in that but people take it to extremes.

You see posts on here all the time where someone has blown an OP out once for a night out and the response will be something like "she's not a friend. Move on". It's so melodramatic and controlling. Life just isn't that simple.

Friendships change over time: I've got 30+ year friendships with people who I can go for long periods without seeing, mainly for logistics reasons, but we still know we love one another. You can't expect all your friends to be glued to you in perpetuity: life gets in the way. Friendships also come in all shapes and sizes and you don't need everyone in your life to be the sort of person you call at 4am if you're having a tiff with your spouse.

I think some people need to have a bit more of an open-minded interpretation of what a friend is and let go of some of this.

I think this is very true. It's quite embarrassing to read sometimes, grown women acting like 13 year olds over friends. I love my friends, I like my acquaintances. That does not mean I love or like every single thing about them. My (cynical) nan described friends as people you could spend an extended amount of time not hating. There is more to it than that but a lot of people I would consider friends I've met because they were friends of other friends. Others are people I met in school and, even if they do piss me off at times, we have years of shared experiences. If, at the beginning of year 7, I'd been given a sheet of paper with a short description of the character, likes and dislikes of the 250 people in our year and asked to pick friends from it, it wouldn't be the people who I ended up friends with. By an accident of circumstance, I was in classes with, told to sit next to and made to do partner exercises with in PE a number of people who I ended up choosing to spend time with and sort of grew around. I've put this really badly, I know, but my point is that, just as your partner being your "soulmate" is bollocks, the same applies to friends.

Why is that so hard to understand. Not everyone has oodles of people to fall back on.

If I didn't have a single friend then I would put some effort in to find them. Of course you don't have to if you don't want any friends, but then obviously you will also have no friends when you need them. If you do want them, then you have to work on finding some.
Sitting in the corner, not talking to anybody but complaining that other people don't make an effort to reach out and be your friend is not the most efficient way to find friends in my opinion.

@thepeopleversuswork I agree you can’t let one bad experience overtake or decide the rest of your possible new friendships. Sometimes people fall out and never make up again and other times there’s no big fall out as such but you and that particular friend end up parting ways because that’s how life may take you sometimes. It’s sad but I think we have to learn to let go!

Surely a relationship based on sexual coupling and child-rearing has a much higher risk of this than a friendship with someone of the same sex based on camaraderie and shared interests?

Yes, one would think so @thepeopleversuswork! I mean, sexual relationships/marriage are incredibly high stakes, and the fallout when things go wrong is potentially terrible, as one glance at the Relationships forum on here will tell you.

So it does feel deeply illogical that people who are in (or have formed in the past) committed relationships or married, particularly with children, talk about friendships as though those involved far too much risk, drama etc. And that anyone who has had a significant relationship or a marriage end would recognise how important friendships that aren't based on sexual fidelity and economic interdependence are ...?

I would be prepared to be that most of the time when people trot this out what they actually mean is that they don't want to have good friendships with other women because their spouse is threatened by it.

That hadn't occurred to me, but maybe you're right. It's an appalling thought, if so.

The other thing I sometimes find myself thinking about is a mindset that I associate with my mother's mindset and generation (she's in her late 70s, from a conservative, religious rural background, and met and married my father at 21) -- which is that young women need friends primarily so that they can have a social life that lets them meet men they can marry, and then after they marry they apparently 'naturally' retreat from friendships.

I think she finds it mysterious and possibly slightly improper that I, with a husband and young child, regularly go out at night to see my friends. Because in her view I'm 'settled' and no longer 'need' my friends.

GrandUnion

"The other thing I sometimes find myself thinking about is a mindset that I associate with my mother's mindset and generation (she's in her late 70s, from a conservative, religious rural background, and met and married my father at 21) -- which is that young women need friends primarily so that they can have a social life that lets them meet men they can marry, and then after they marry they apparently 'naturally' retreat from friendships.

I think she finds it mysterious and possibly slightly improper that I, with a husband and young child, regularly go out at night to see my friends. Because in her view I'm 'settled' and no longer 'need' my friends."

Agree. My mum was basically like that too.

I think this attitude is surprisingly prevalent still, albeit clothed in more modern language. The idea that your friendships are just placeholders until your husband swoops in to fulfil your every need.

You see this all the time when people talk about "the family" coming ahead of everything else. Obviously the family should take priority, but sometimes that's extrapolated to mean that the spouse negates the need for outside contact with anyone else. Which in my view is a recipe for disaster, even with a strong, healthy marriage, let alone a bad one.

Friendship is life-enhancing but its also an insurance policy in the event that the spouse turns out not to tick every single box. Which they are unlikely to do.

I often read posts on here with incredulity. It baffles me that people are offended or annoyed by some of the trivial stuff posted. Even worse are some of the vicious replies. Very rarely are posters told to calm down and think rationally or think about the action/intent of the other party. It is just cut them off, they are toxic, etc, etc. No one is perfect and everyone has off days.

People are all different and you have to take them as a whole and accept or ignore the trivial stuff which may irritate.

I only have people on social media whom I know well and like. I have what's app groups with people I know and like. I don't see anything childish about supportive female (or male) friendships. I know if I needed any of them they would be here like a shot, as I would for them.

In fact, as I type I am chatting on what's app with two old friends I met and worked with when I was 18, *(many years ago!)we are supporting her through the recent sudden loss of her husband. I haven't seen her in person for probably 4 years, but we are in constant touch and I know our friendship has helped her through some dark days.

Friendship takes work, tolerance, kindness and the acceptance that everyone is different and has different daily lives. The things that bind you are what is important and those are what need to be nurtured.

I think those that shout about being self-sufficient are really missing the point. I don't need friends to fulfil a lack in me or in my family life. I want them to enhance my life and for me to enhance theirs.

At the school gate people (pre covid) seem to stand on their own and not engage with others

I bet most of those people standing on their own and not engaging will later complain that everybody is standing on their own and not engaging. But did they themselves make an effort to say hi and engage then?

I have a few friends, but I'm aware that to some people it doesn't appear that way.

I barely speak to them, maybe every couple of months, I see them even less. I know that if I needed them they'd be there for me (though I'm reluctant to ask for fear of appearing to be that friend who only gets in touch when they need something), and I'd drop everything for them.

But I'm a disabled introvert, even if I felt physically able to go out and meet them, just working and interacting with my husband and kids often leaves me burnt out on social interaction.

Sometimes I feel guilty being such a distant friend, and envious of people who have regular contact with their friends. But I'm aware there was an element of relief once lockdown happened and I no longer had to force myself to go out and see people, so I feel like maybe I should just resign myself to the fact I'm just not likely to have the "normal" friendships others seem to have with ease.

@EmeraldShamrock

How do those of you without any friends break the news to a new partner? Are they bothered by it? No lots of people are in the same position as long as you have interests and social interactions even through work it's not that unusual. No everyone is living the city life it is nice to click with like minded people. Someone with lots of friends would put me off quicker I'd think they need lots of attention.

I agree. I had a partner who had an incredibly active social life and I found it very draining keeping up with his numerous plans with friends every weekend. So I definitely avoid people who look like they have a very active social life on dating profiles. :) I do enjoy being with people and am usually active with groups and classes but with lockdown and also around work in the past year or so, that has fallen away a bit. I've also moved around a lot in my life for work, so have had to start from scratch in every new city. Some places are easier than others... London not so easy to form lasting friendships. :)

@Readandwalk

I'd be very very wary if a new partner had no friends. To be blunt I'd think there was something seriously wrong with them.

But then I invest in my friends far more than relationship. I enjoy a wide circle of reciprocal friendships and the support, interest and fun this gives to my life is invaluable.

That's interesting. I would feel the same about a partner without any friends, even though I don't have many myself. I wonder if there's a different standard for men and women though?

It could be a challenge for a couple if they have very different levels of social need. Not the same thing but an fairly introverted family member of mine married someone from a big family and it was a real adjustment getting used to having such a large number of people to fit in.

I don't get the no friends thing. I have a group from school, one from Uni, some from my old work and some mums. Especially with WhatsApp etc it so easy to keep in touch and arrange meetings and dinner. You have to make an effort though

I'd be very very wary if a new partner had no friends. To be blunt I'd think there was something seriously wrong with them.

Then in your opinion,there is something seriously wrong with me!

@gottakeeponmovin

I don't get the no friends thing. I have a group from school, one from Uni, some from my old work and some mums. Especially with WhatsApp etc it so easy to keep in touch and arrange meetings and dinner. You have to make an effort though

For WhatsApp to work you need to know people's mobile numbers which suggests a certain amount of friendship already.

It's all very people saying if they didn't have friend they'd make an effort to get some but if all your attempts at friendship fail then where does that leave you? If you've never had a friend then how do you suddenly magic one up from nowhere?