to think that not having friends isn't that unusual

[faginssidekick]

AIBU to think that this isn't actually all that unusual in this day and age when people have moved away from their families, have smaller families and work such long hours or have a long commute? At the school gate people (pre covid) seem to stand on their own and not engage with others and children going round to other's houses to play seems to be a rarer thing than it used to be a few years ago? Mine were always in and out of other's houses when they were younger as we lived in a road with a lot of similar aged children but that doesn't seem to happen any more. Obviously that's before this year and covid.

Venicelover

"I think those that shout about being self-sufficient are really missing the point. I don't need friends to fulfil a lack in me or in my family life. I want them to enhance my life and for me to enhance theirs."

Totally agree with this.

I have reliably no friends. I had a group from primary school, secondary school, uni and work and they've all just fizzled out. I don't know why. I've tried to keep contact but they just don't. I had my first child in June and it's incredibly lonely and I hate it.

I'd be very very wary if a new partner had no friends. To be blunt I'd think there was something seriously wrong with them

I'd actually go further than this. I don't understand how you can get into committed relationships without being able to make friends first. How does that work? Surely you need to be able to make and keep friendships before you can have a committed relationship?

I'd run a mile if I met a potential partner who had no friends. Huge red flag.

MrsMarrio

Genuine question: to you and others like you as this has always confused me if you're able to get to the point where you can have a committed enough relationship that you can have a child with someone, how is it that you can't make friends? This makes no sense to me...

I'd be very very wary if a new partner had no friends. To be blunt I'd think there was something seriously wrong with them.

What is it that would be seriously wrong with them?

I have a couple of acquaintances at the school gates. One school mum kind of pushed her way into the 'friend' category, inviting me for coffee etc and I found myself accepting as I couldn't think of a quick get-out. On the surface I'm sociable and smiley. On the inside I'm not
The reason I don't have friends is because I think I weigh people up very quickly and tbh I just don't like a lot of people.
I would love a close friendship with someone who 'gets' me and who I think is fantastic.
Sadly, I've never found anyone even remotely close.

@thepeopleversuswork

Venicelover

"I think those that shout about being self-sufficient are really missing the point. I don't need friends to fulfil a lack in me or in my family life. I want them to enhance my life and for me to enhance theirs."

Totally agree with this.

Yes, absoloutely! It's very interesting that some of the friendless people on the thread seem to view people with friends as 'needy' I'm unusually self-sufficient, and I have a husband of many years that I adore, and a young child, and a job, and a new, very old house that is a massive project but my friendships are important to me because I genuinely value the company of the people I'm friends with. They make my life better, and I hope the same is true of my presence in their lives.

I don't need them for support, childcare, mutual favours, emergency loans etc, I just like them being in my life. And I like making new friends because it's very nice adding new and different people to my life. We moved countries less than a year ago, and one of the nice things about my son starting to make friends at school has been encountering the friends' parents -- two or three of whom, at least, are definitely people I could see becoming proper friends, rather than school gate acquaintances.

School gates friendships are much harder when everyone's working. I mean, DS' primary school has a relatively high proportion of SAHMs as it's quite affluent, but I have never really connected with mums as friends as I have barely ever been there and I don't make friends easily - for context DS is in Y5 andDD finished there in 2019. I know some of them from other contexts. I don't think people are actively unfriendly (some people do seem to jump to this conclusion very quickly), it's just there's very little time, especially if you can't come often and or can't hang around when you do. Making overtures to others takes some effort and I don't take it personally that no one has to me especially.

It does make playdates a bit harder, but my kids have had them anyway - maybe less than previous generations but honestly that seems more to do with a mixture of after-school activities and in some cases separated parents which makes arrangements that much trickier.

I don't have many close friends since having had kids. Many of my friends were single and didn't have children so they sort of drifted away as I was no longer available to meet up all the time.
I have a couple of long term friends from school that I've been friends with for more than 30 years now but we don't see each other very often. One lives several counties away and is not very tolerant of kids (I have three) and the other lives abroad. However I know that I could absolutely rely on them if I needed to. We do try and meet up once or twice a year. I also have some other groups of friends but they don't live close by and I only see them a few times a year.
Locally, I only really have one very close friend. I'd love to have more but I find it incredibly difficult to make small talk with people - I'm sure people think I'm being rude but I really struggle with things to say if I have no common ground with them. I'm also quite introverted so I struggle when people, even friends I've known for years, come to my house because I do like to have alone time - even from my own children.
So I do feel a little lonely at times. I want to have more friends but I struggle with making conversation and I like to be alone. But I don't want to spend all my time alone. I'm very conflicted LOL

@fags
You have to sometimes make the fist move - sometimes you will get pushback. Don't you have any numbers for the mums from school? I find school the hardest because I work full time but surely you have made friends from work. It sounds like you are scared to make the first move but if you want friends you are going to have to dive in and see where it goes
On the other point I have a very happy relationship, 3 kids and a full time job but having friends definitely enhances my life. It also means I can go out and have a babysitter already at hand 😀

Spied

"The reason I don't have friends is because I think I weigh people up very quickly and tbh I just don't like a lot of people."

This seems an incredibly paranoid and suspicious way of looking at people.

And this: "One school mum kind of pushed her way into the 'friend' category, inviting me for coffee etc and I found myself accepting as I couldn't think of a quick get-out. On the surface I'm sociable and smiley. On the inside I'm not".

You seem to see someone wanting to be your friend as a bad thing and that your role is to beat them off with a stick: as if you actively discourage friendship. Why is this woman wanting to be your friend a bad or threatening thing? I mean you're well without your rights to decide you don't get on with her after you've hung out for a bit, but you seem to see the act of cultivating a friendship in itself as an intrinsically negative thing.

Did that approach come into play when you were looking for a partner as well? or just with female friendships?

I find this really hard to understand....

YANBU OP.

I have loads of acquaintances - mum friends from the school gates, work colleagues etc etc, most I have known for 10+ years.

But real, ride or die friends? I have my OH, and 1 true friend who I could turn to in a crisis. No one else. Haven't had for 20 odd years.

I think it's common to have those superficial friendships,. and most people who seem to have loads of friends just have these acquaintances. True friendships are quite hard to make especially the older you get and if I'm honest I've given up on it.

I'm also quite cynical about people, I have been used as a friend a lot in the past for money/time/ help by people who then made fuck all effort for me when I needed them. I've also found people being really quite unkind and cruel to me over the years under the guise of friendship (the friend who complained I made things all about me when I got upset about my mum 3 weeks after she died , the one who told me - when I was a size 12 - that she'd never been 'as fat as me' even though I knew she was previously a size 18 and 6 inches shorter. Or the ones who fucked me over at work, or never supported me when I was desperately trying to escape an abusive relationship). I am a lot happier now I don't have to worry about spiteful catty comments, bitching and backstabbing and don't miss any of those people one bit.

One thing I do regret is losing touch with 2 true friends in my 20s, one because she had basically a perfect life and I didn't feel I fitted in with all her rich friends, the other because I was just overwhelmed with my DC and shit with my then partner. The first one died without me getting back in touch with her, the second one moved and I have no way of contacting her, I've looked for her on social media but she has a relatively common name so no luck.

*I'd actually go further than this. I don't understand how you can get into committed relationships without being able to make friends first. How does that work? Surely you need to be able to make and keep friendships before you can have a committed relationship?

I'd run a mile if I met a potential partner who had no friends. Huge red flag.*

I'm perfectly able to make friends,thanks - I just choose not to. And I'm in a committed relationship.

Bluesheep8

"I'm perfectly able to make friends,thanks - I just choose not to. And I'm in a committed relationship."

Why? Why would you actively choose not to have friends? And do you think your committed relationship will provide all the emotional sustenance you need?

Genuine questions: I'm struggling to get my head around this...

@PhilCornwall1

I'd be very very wary if a new partner had no friends. To be blunt I'd think there was something seriously wrong with them.

What is it that would be seriously wrong with them?

Well, it will depend on the person. But, based on the people I know/know of who have no friends, and posts on here, it could be one or more of the following --

(a) as with the friend whose only friend I am described up the thread, that the friendless person is simply too lazy and/or passive to make or maintain friendships. Friendships for this type of person are like taking up running when you don't really want to -- you start Couch to 5k a few times but it peters out. This person is often very low-energy, and just wants to come home from work and watch TV, and even a WhatsApp message is too much to ask.

(b) the person is the kind of person who limits their life to one person, their longterm partner or spouse, and 'borrows' their friends. hobbies etc -- so that when that relationship ends, so do the friendships and hobbies and the person goes into stasis until their social life is revived by a new relationship with associated friends and hobbies.

(c) the person is in a controlling, overly-exclusive or obsessive relationship my sister met her boyfriend her first day of university and the relationship became overly-close and exclusive immediately, which meant she never made any other friends throughout two degrees and the two of them subsequently living in different countries as English teachers. When he broke up with her after fourteen years, she had literally no one in her life to phone he'd just walked out in a remote part of Asia -- having even distanced herself from even family because he fulfilled all her needs. Until he didn't.

Or the person's partner actively prevents them having friends.

(d) the person is a total misanthrope, and has a profound dislike and mistrust of literally the rest of the human race, because everyone is awful apart from them, their dog and possibly their husband/wife/mum.

(e) the person struggles with basic social skills to the extent that they can't hold a conversation with another person

(f) the person is an unpleasant form of drama queen who sees spite, ill-intent and malice in all social interactions and huffs off, declaring that all friendships involve 'two-faced' people.

(g) the person is a people-pleaser with poor boundaries, who thinks friendship involves service and allowing yourself to be exploited by people you don't even ask yourself if you like. When there's no reciprocal 'service', the person is hurt and says they're surrounded by 'users'.

(h) the person is not neurotypical and struggles with relationships

(i) the person, like my mother, thinks friendships are for the young and unmarried, and that you retire them on marriage, apart from Christmas cards.

(j) the person suffers from phobias/MH issues which mean they lead a very limited life.

(k) the person is desperate for friendships but is visibly trying to fill a lack in their own lives and comes across as desperate and too full-on for other people to initiate a friendship with

(l) the person is unlucky in where they currently live, and is, through no fault of their own, a poor fit with the kind of person available locally

I could go on.

My OH has one close friend he's known for 20+ years since they worked together as teenagers (albeit they lost touch for about 10 years in the middle of that), no others, and no real acquaintances.

With men I think it's even harder than women to make friends. My Ex used to drink in a particular pub from mid 20s, plus played a sport, all his 'friends' who were more acquaintances really came from one of those. But if you don't drink (like my OH) or play team sports, the only avenue men have to make friends as an adult is work - and if you WFH, or run your own business then it's nigh on impossible.

My children started in a brand new school this year, nobody knew anybody else. So one parent took the initiative to set up a class WhatsApp group, another invited everybody to meet up for coffee after drop off, another said he will take the DC to a nearby playground after school if anybody wants to join, and from then you can of course organise separate meetings, if you hit off..and that's just school gates. I have made friends through dog walking, language exchange, baby classes, gym, DC's hobbies etc etc..just have to say hi. And then of course also maintain those relationships.

Genuine question: to you and others like you as this has always confused me if you're able to get to the point where you can have a committed enough relationship that you can have a child with someone, how is it that you can't make friends? This makes no sense to me...

For me, it's a mix of bad luck and circumstances. I immigrated when I got married way back before social media made staying in touch as easy as it is now, I had children young in an area with mostly older mums to the point of having been openly mocked at baby groups which caused me to sharply withdraw, I was a 'mature student' at university who got various nasty comments for already being married and having kids in my mid-twenties so I just focused on my work and ended up not joining-in much - I could chat and be friendly, but made few friends there. I did make a few local friends, but now they're having babies and withdrawing away themselves so if I send them a message we might chat for a few minutes and that's it and others just turned nasty on me after I went through multiple bereavements.

In another thread, there are people who said it's a common British thing to say "We should do...." and then not. I've had that so many times, I've tried following up to make plans and rearrange and I end up feeling like they must just not want me around which seems to be the right message. Maybe it's because I was raised knowing I am an unwanted child, but if I don't feel wanted, my natural response is to give others space. This has left me with pretty much with a handful of my spouse's friends at this point, none of which I really see as my own, just people who are nice and chat when in a group chat together.

I'm trying, I've done the groups, and now the zoom groups and the apps... it's disheartening. I know it's weird if not really unusual these days, but I don't know what else to do at this point. I've half-joked to my spouse that if he dies before me, I'll need to live in a retirement community in my old age where they arrange the social activities because that has felt like the only way I'll be sure to have people around then.

GrandUnion

Nail on head. Not one of these scenarios is healthy or correlates with an expectation of happiness.

And with the exceptions of scenario h (not neurotypical) or scenario l (not a good fit with people they live around), none of these it out of control of the person.

Seriously, why would you choose to deprive yourself of the massively life-enhancing properties of friendship? Friendships can be difficult and yes, sometimes friends let you down. Sometimes they don't work and you have to be big enough to write them off. And they are never perfect.

But to go out of your way to exclude people who could have a hugely benign effect on your life seems so mean and self-defeating.

*Why? Why would you actively choose not to have friends? And do you think your committed relationship will provide all the emotional sustenance you need?

Genuine questions: I'm struggling to get my head around this*

I choose not to have any friends because I feel as though they take more than they give in terms of time/attention/energy.
Don't get me wrong, I have colleagues at work who I get on brilliantly with, I'm very well liked at work. I just don't accept any social invitations or respond to any requests to get together outside of work. I'm just not interested in all that and don't have the energy to give.
Having been in the same relationship for almost 25 years, I'd say my emotional sustenance is pretty well catered for.

I think you’re right op, I have some good friends I made while younger at university and overseas. When I returned to the UK I was self employed doing rather solitary work as an illustrator. Only one of my close friends lives in the uk and in another city at that although pre Covid-19 we made the effort to meet up regularly.

I do know other women through my and my husbands family and while I get on well with them I probably don’t have enough in common with them to pursue a deeper friendship. I don’t seek friends just for the sake of it, there would have to be a real connection there but if I’m honest it’s been a while since I’ve put myself in a position to meet like minded people.

I did have a close male friend for a while but we have drifted apart since he had children and he has less time for the sorts of things we used to do together such as art galleries and concerts etc. I think now he gives priority to his oldest friends from school and goes to the pub when he gets a night off. We’re still in touch but it’s not the close friendship it once was.

Another issue I find especially with women is that it can be difficult to just be friends with that one woman, often they try to integrate you into their group, which I don’t like.

I suppose I prefer one to one type friendships of a fairly intimate nature, not claustrophobic or intense but where there is a real person to person connection on a deeper level. These are difficult to find though.

I think this is confusing real friendship with having acquaintances though.

I've got people I work with who are 'friends' in the sense I go to lunch with them (when we weren't WFH) or for after work drinks, ditto school mum friends where we meet up - or again did in previous years - for drinks, a night out etc. And other groups I have met in different ways who again I see socially from time to time.

It's not too difficult to get into a group like this. Establishing true friendships can be harder if not impossible. By the time you get into your 30s most people have those friends already, and have 'room' for more acquaintances but aren't really offering more than that. That's the reality of it. And I think that with the current restrictions we're only going to see people becoming more isolated.

Since March I have seen 1 person I know as I happened to bump into her in the supermarket, and another person I know when I looked after her puppy for the day. I've exchanged a couple of messages with my closest friend, and that's it. Seen from no one else nor heard from them.

That sounded sarcastic now I read it back, it really wasn't intended to be

Re-reading this thread it seems as if some are trying to say that those with lots of friends are not seeing that they are 'superficial' friends rather than 'proper' friends.

It gave me pause for thought, but on reflection, it isn't true for me.

My friends fall into several categories and those are separate from each other. I have a friendship group from school whom I am in weekly contact with and with whom in pre covid times I would eat out at least once a month, go away for weekends with and generally socialise with.

I have a friendship group from college and we go to each other's houses for dinner two or three times a year, but keep in monthly contact via text.

I have a friendship group from every place I have worked at and we keep in touch via social media/text/what's app and meet up for annual events/coffee/meals out.

I have another group of friends who are also neighbours and we socialise locally.

I have a group of school mum friends who I was on the PTA with and with whom I have kept in touch as our kids are all friends now and they socialise. We meet for celebrations to do with the kids: birthdays, graduations, engagements, weddings etc.

I have a close friendship with 2 current colleagues who I speak to most days about issues other than work, one of them is someone I was best friends with at primary school and the other is a close friend of another of my friends, but I had no idea of that when I met her!

My friendship groups rarely mix together, although they are all quite similar people in personality.

All of those people are my 'proper' friends. of course, I also have a lot of 'acquaintances' or those who I speak to superficially and whose lives/problems/dreams I know very little about.

It does take time and effort to keep in touch with everyone but the benefits vastly outweigh the work to me. IMO, no one should ever be too busy with work/domestic drama to nurture friendships with those they value and want in their lives.

The test of friendships is can you go for periods without contact and then slide back into the same place without any issues. Like shrugging on a comfy dressing gown and sinking into it with delight. I am very lucky to have that kind of relationship with all my friends. They give me joy, laughs and comfort, and gin!

I think this is confusing real friendship with having acquaintances though.

Hit the nail on the head. I've got loads of acquaintances who I happen to really like and get on well with. But that's different to friendship.