to think that not having friends isn't that unusual

[faginssidekick]

AIBU to think that this isn't actually all that unusual in this day and age when people have moved away from their families, have smaller families and work such long hours or have a long commute? At the school gate people (pre covid) seem to stand on their own and not engage with others and children going round to other's houses to play seems to be a rarer thing than it used to be a few years ago? Mine were always in and out of other's houses when they were younger as we lived in a road with a lot of similar aged children but that doesn't seem to happen any more. Obviously that's before this year and covid.

@blowinahoolie

"I think this is why so many people can't make friends...they have insane expectations of what friends are supposed to be and do. You think someone needs to prove themselves for years over multiple challanges for the honour of you calling them a friend? This is nuts!"

Maybe to you it is, that is exactly why this topic of friendship is so subjective. We all have different expectations just as we have different personalities. It's just trial and error it seems getting the balance right. And a lot of it is down to chance meetings with others in life.

Yes, but @blowinahoolie, when someone says (as that poster does) that they don't have any friends, they have acquaintances that they are essentially auditioning, over a period of many years, to see whether they will eventually pass some kind of friendship test that involves them being sufficiently helpful in a crisis AND when all this is being said on a thread about friendlessness where many posters have admitted to sadness about lack of friends I think it's worth pointing out that this is (a) a pretty unusual requirement and (b) that many or most people would consider this a ludicrously high bar for considering someone a friend.

Just as hard cases make bad laws, I don't think that considering the worth of friends entirely on their behaviour to you in a crisis is realy indicative of the quality of the friendship.

Some people my mother is one actively prefer people who are low/in trouble/ill/bereaved/broke etc because it makes them feel useful and (in my mother's case completely unconsciously) makes them feel they have a certain amount of power in the relationship because the other person is down. Often those people can't cope when the troubled/ill person's life changes for the better, and they aren't 'needed' in the same way.

I notice this particularly because of witnessing my mother's relationships over the years it's not that she's a grief vampire, it's that she feels rejected when someone who's been 'down' is suddenly happy, lucky, healthy and confident again, because that person doesn't 'need' her any more to listen to their woes, and she feels they now have higher status than her. You can actually hear her switching off from people if they phone with good news she certainly has far more interest in me and my siblings if we're 'down' for any reason.

And of course it's a self-fulfilling prophecy, in that people sense her sudden lack of interest, even hostility (even while she's saying 'I'm delighted for you!') and tend to only call her when they are in trouble. As a result, despite being the one you call when you're in trouble, she is without friends.

I agree. it's difficult. I've spent a lot of time living in hotels for work all over the country and I've also worked away. I'm often the only as I work in tech. I've worked lots of long night shifts where the only people I saw were cleaners and security guards. I usually have a very long commute. I've spent some time during the last recession out of work. And then there's debts which aren't exactly conducive to going out and enjoying yourself. Working/looking for work are often exhausting. And then there's retraining and all the time studying. Time's a big issue too.

I don't really have that many friends at all, honestly only 4 people I would truly cass as friends, and I rarely see them either (though do talk a lot online). I very rarely leave the house though in general, even before lockdown and am rather antisocial..would be horrified if some randomer came to talk to me! Always been that way, not sure why.

Re my last post, I have in the past called people friends and have been let down badly. I have treat them as I have liked to be treat, invested time and effort only to find that when in my times of need they have upped and disappeared like a fart in the wind.
One through rough times, whilst I tried to be supportive and work through it, they chucked it all back and left me in the lurch.
So yes may be it does sound like an audition, but unfortunately you sometimes done find out until its too late and then your left with a bit of a complex about yourself!
So yes I am cautious now I give a bit and then take a bit and build it up over time so I don't get stung again. Its the only way I can keep my faith in people!

GrandUnion

"Yes, but @blowinahoolie, when someone says (as that poster does) that they don't have any friends, they have acquaintances that they are essentially auditioning, over a period of many years, to see whether they will eventually pass some kind of friendship test that involves them being sufficiently helpful in a crisis AND when all this is being said on a thread about friendlessness where many posters have admitted to sadness about lack of friends I think it's worth pointing out that this is (a) a pretty unusual requirement and (b) that many or most people would consider this a ludicrously high bar for considering someone a friend."

Another really sensible post from GrandUnion. There's this weird super high expectation level which seems to have crept into what defines friendship these days which is quite unhealthy. There's another post on here at the moment where a poster has suddenly decided to "test" her friendships by setting them an unspecified deadline to respond to a message (and ended up with her deleting all her contacts because, surprise surprise, none of them passed the test). The idea of "auditioning" people for friendship is bonkers IMHO.

It seems to have grown out of the realisation that not all acquaintances are friends and developed a life of its own: friendship is now seen as something which requires a degree of dedication that most people simply can't sustain.

I'm all for setting high standards but a lot of these expectations seem almost to invite failure: people expect a friend to be a spouse (minus the sex), a parent and a therapist all rolled into one with a level of commitment and empathy which most people can't even provide for their own kids. It's just not a reasonable threshold.

Friendship is about many things: love, fun, contact, advice and support, bitching, keeping company. And sometimes, yes, convenience. A person doesn't have to tick every single box.

I just think it would help if people were a bit more accepting of other people and their needs and the levels at which they function in general, accepting that they are flawed and will fuck up sometimes and being prepared to accept that back within reason when they do so. It's not meant to be such hard work.

Mils I could have written your post.

blowinahoolie

Could it be, though, that you are over-investing? I ask this in the nicest possible way.

It's a bit like the dating threads when people get really carried away with a bloke they haven't met and then feel deflated when they get ghosted.

If you feel that people are letting you down all the time maybe you need to step back a bit and give a bit less of yourself?

In my experience friendships work better when they build quite slowly anyway. I don't think people are helping themselves when they expect so much of their friends.

I wonder where this idea of “testing” friendships comes from, what’s at the heart of it? A psychologist might now... lack of unconditional love as a child? Inability to bond? Abandonment issues?

You even see it on Social Media, people demanding things are re-posted so they know who their “real friends” are

For me a friend is someone you like to spend time with, someone who you wish well and who wishes you well. Someone who can be honest and straight, no keeping up appearances.

I could not do life without friends, I need back-up (and I like being back-up for them)

It's quite simple: if you repeatedly feel like you are not getting enough, its because you are expecting too much.
If everyone you make friends with "lets you down", its because you want them to spend their time lifting you up.
In short, its not everyone else: it's you.

thepeople no, not offended at all. I am actually feeling like this thread is helping me understand where I have been going wrong for years. Yes, I do tend to over invest in friendship. That would obviously explain past experiences. I thought more of individuals more than they thought of me. Being too nice never gets you far in life. This is where I have been going wrong all this time.

blowinahoolie

"Being too nice never gets you far in life."

It's a bit of an over-simplification but there's some truth in this. I think a degree of selfishness actually helps.

Firstly because you want to feel someone is their own person and doesn't simply get validation from you. If someone is bending over backwards to accommodate you all the time and putting your needs over theirs you subconsciously start suspecting they are quite needy and don't value themself enough I think. Its not a million miles away from dating in that respect.

Also I think by being over-supportive of other people (constantly checking in, sending gifts and cards etc) you can project the impression that you are doing it to get something in return.

I'm not saying people who are rampantly selfish are attractive because they are not and other people tend to see through them quite quickly. But I feel like a lot of women in particular have been socialised to think their primary role is to be other people's caretakers and tend to over-engineer this. And then feel disappointed and let down when other people find this a bit stifling and retreat.

@blowinahoolie

thepeople no, not offended at all. I am actually feeling like this thread is helping me understand where I have been going wrong for years. Yes, I do tend to over invest in friendship. That would obviously explain past experiences. I thought more of individuals more than they thought of me. Being too nice never gets you far in life. This is where I have been going wrong all this time.

I don’t think that over-investing in a friendship is the same as ‘being too nice’, though. It’s more like what @thepeopleversuswork says about giving more than you can spare of yourself and feeling deflated when you don’t get what you consider a similar level of commitment back.

I had a big birthday earlier in the year (just before lockdown) and I had invited an old friend to my birthday celebration when I spoke to her in the previous December and she said she would be ok to come.

In Feb I texted her with the dates (twice) but got no response. I thought about not pursuing it as she hadn't 'bothered' responding, but I did, I rang her and the reason she hadn't replied was that her DH had just been diagnosed with a terminal and fast-spreading cancer and her head was a mess. I could so easily have left it and written her off.

My point is that it seems that many on here do exactly that, they make no allowances for life intervening or for issues arising, they simply cut them off and then whinge about how everyone lets them down. You have to try to be a flexible/understanding friend!!

Yes, I do tend to over invest in friendship. That would obviously explain past experiences. I thought more of individuals more than they thought of me. Being too nice never gets you far in life. This is where I have been going wrong all this time.

I don’t think you are going ‘wrong’, Blow - again, I just think you need a better perspective on it.

You say that you ‘over-invest’ and ‘think more of other people than they think of you’.

I do think, as others have suggested, that you maybe just need to step back a little.

Don’t ‘invest’. Just be. And by ‘be’, I mean be you. Live your life. Spend time with people. Don’t going around investing in others. It sounds counter-productive, but it’s worth a shot.

Because you say that you think more of others than they do of you. I bet that’s not necessarily the case. It’s simply that they’re taking the approach I suggest above. They’re just ‘being’.

And they’re probably just ‘being’ (as opposed to ‘investing’) with a range of people - and as such, are entirely oblivious to all the investing you’re doing in them.

I have in the past called people friends and have been let down badly. I have treat them as I have liked to be treat, invested time and effort only to find that when in my times of need they have upped and disappeared like a fart in the wind.

Yes very much this. My oldest friendship group - who I have known since primary school are this to a T. Take and never give anything back. Even my Ex (who is the least perceptive person) commented on this years ago, when they would visit our home they would all sit around expecting to be waited on whilst Ex and I juggled 2 toddlers, making drinks, food etc. It was the same when we went away as a group, all the cooking and cleaning for the entire group got left to the 2 of us. None of the others have any children nor any physical ailments that would prevent them doing anything they are just lazy and a bit inconsiderate. And have literally never helped me on anything but the most basic level in 30 odd years despite the fact I have given up masses of time to them (albeit not any more now I have seen the light).

They are the only people who knew me in schooldays (I have no living family other than my children) so I am reluctant to cut contact completely, but we have so little in common (and have had little in common) it is a friendship of habit rather than anything more at this stage.

MerchantOfVenom is spot on with the thing about "being" and not "doing".

Grenlei

"My oldest friendship group - who I have known since primary school are this to a T. Take and never give anything back."

So why not turn the tables? Stop waiting on them, doing things for them and anticipating their needs. Let them come to you. And if they don't, screw them, there are other better people out there.

If you find people are always letting you down then it is reasonable to ask whether you are inviting this in some way. I don't mean that in a nasty, victim-blaming way. But feels as if you need to reset your expectations.

So why not turn the tables? Stop waiting on them, doing things for them and anticipating their needs. Let them come to you.

I have - after many years of this carry on, ignoring stuff because they were such old friends, I pulled right back last year. I have barely heard from any of them since, even pre-Covid.

Yes, I do tend to over invest in friendship. That would obviously explain past experiences. I thought more of individuals more than they thought of me. Being too nice never gets you far in life. This is where I have been going wrong all this time.

No, you're still not getting it. It's not "being too nice". It's not nice at all, to have overly high expectations and constantly judge others to have not met them. It's not "thinking more of others", because you're still actually more thinking of yourself, and what you want from them, rather than really about them.
"Over investing" is not niceness, its actually quite controlling. It's needy and it frightens people away from you, because they know they can't give you what you think you need. No-one can.

So why not turn the tables? Stop waiting on them, doing things for them and anticipating their needs. Let them come to you.

Haha ,thats what most of us on this thread did,thats why we are friendless.

Borderline is right. I have also not been contacted by that particular friend - still waiting - nine years that's been since I asked if she wanted to go to lunch 😂 holding back has shown that the friendship had ended. That's that.

I’ve made five lovely sahm friends in the last few years but had soooo many embarrassing moments when I attempted to be friendly at playgroup/school gate etc and got shot down or ignored. It’s really hard work making new friends! And I do find working mums completely disinterested (and that former sahm friends ditch me as soon as they return to work ☹️) .

But we do usually manage 3 playdates a week, well prelockdown obviously, so for us all the frantic friendliness is worth it...

FudgeDrudge

"Over investing" is not niceness, its actually quite controlling. It's needy and it frightens people away from you, because they know they can't give you what you think you need. No-one can."

This with bells on.

BorderlineHappy

Try looking at it as a positive. Instead of seeing it as "we are friendless", look at it in terms of "I've dumped a load of baggage." You have shed people who took you for granted and didn't appreciate you, freeing yourself up from the obligation, the mental load and making time. Allowing you to find like minded, respectful and considerate people who could go on to be friends.

I understand that its painful when someone can't be arsed. But I really think its a matter of perspective. If you routinely get into situations where you are giving more to people than you get back and feeling let down all the time, you have to ask yourself whether you are setting unreasonable expectations which they can't meet.

It doesn't take long to separate the wheat from the chaff. You soon find out who your true friends are in life.

@thepeopleversuswork

Try looking at it as a positive. Instead of seeing it as "we are friendless", look at it in terms of "I've dumped a load of baggage." You have shed people who took you for granted and didn't appreciate you, freeing yourself up from the obligation, the mental load and making time. Allowing you to find like minded, respectful and considerate people who could go on to be friends.

I do