to think that not having friends isn't that unusual

[faginssidekick]

AIBU to think that this isn't actually all that unusual in this day and age when people have moved away from their families, have smaller families and work such long hours or have a long commute? At the school gate people (pre covid) seem to stand on their own and not engage with others and children going round to other's houses to play seems to be a rarer thing than it used to be a few years ago? Mine were always in and out of other's houses when they were younger as we lived in a road with a lot of similar aged children but that doesn't seem to happen any more. Obviously that's before this year and covid.

@thepeopleversuswork

GrandUnion

"But that’s entirely normal, to have some situational friendships that are not lifelong — most friendships aren’t lifelong. It doesn’t invalidate the friendships or mean they’re meaningless or disposable."

Exactly. I find this attitude so frustrating. If you go into every friendship expecting it to last a lifetime of course you're going to be hurt and disappointed. Not every friendship will last to the end of your life and not every friend will be with you forever. It doesn't mean that it hasn't been a worthwhile experience.

And people on here seem to have these weirdly absolutist ideas about friendship, like if someone doesn’t respond immediately to your messages or doesn’t tend to initiate contact, or they retreat for a while because they have stuff going on, or they don’t invite you to every social gathering of theirs, they’re false friends/‘two-faced’/ ‘users’.

I have friendships that have ended, or been ended by circumstances, and while this has made me sad, it would be inaccurate to retrospectively rewrite history and make those friendships insignificant.

I'm a different sort.

I would love more friends but am painfully shy and suffer social anxiety so it's not that easy (as some PPs have suggested).

I have a couple of friends luckily, I'd be lost without them, but I wish I could make more.

I have lots of friends, from school, from uni, from past jobs. We keep in touch online mostly, sometimes with real letters, phonecalls. If I'm going to be in their part of the country, I'll let them know, to see if we can meet.

I don't really have an local friends. There are people I go out with from work (back in the days when you could go out,) and I see people at evening classes and exercise classes (back in the days when such things happened.) The long-term relationships I have had have all been distance relationships.

I just don't think I'm very good at relationships, friendship or romantic. I have asked people out for coffee. It never seems to lead to a second one. I haven't really done anything for my birthday since my early 30s when I had a party and almost no one came. It's not that people don't like me - well, some don't, but that's life - but I'm just not high enough on anyone's priority list to come first, or even second mostly. I don't have anyone I could call at 3am in the morning, if something went wrong. If I had to self-isolate - well, I could probably ask my next door neighbours to get me milk and bread. Mostly I am very self-sufficient because I have ended up having to be, so then I don't ask for help. I do lots of activities in my spare time, so I'm usually pretty busy. I'm pretty good at entertaining myself, even if it's just reading or gardening.

But there are times when it's 2am and I wonder if there's any point me being here, when I just don't see anyone. Not often. But sometimes.

There are some difficult stories on here and plenty of people clearly find it hard to make and keep friends. It is hard, when you have jobs and children and life gets in the way. That's totally understandable and also very normal.

But what worries me about this thread is the suggestion from several posters that friendship is more hassle than its worth or, worse, that friends are people not to be trusted, that they have bad intentions and the safest thing is always to stick with the family and shut everyone out.

I think its helpful to be honest about the fact that friendship isn't easy and it comes much more easily to some people than others.

But it genuinely frightens me that people have the idea that is not normal or desirable.

I totally agree with you @thepeopleversuswork .

This thread is quite an eye-opener, it feels like there is so much to unpack in some of these posts.

The people who’ve heard tales about a friendship group gone wrong, and so use it as a reason not to ever be involved in one. Or who were ghosted, and so they don’t let anyone in, as a result of that.

The latter, I can kind of understand - being ghosted must really hurt. But to then tuck yourself away from life until the end of time? No, I don’t understand that.

Part of me wonders about people’s parents and childhoods, and how much that might have shaped their views (nurture). I guess if your parents didn’t have friends, didn’t have people over and go to others’ houses, didn’t see deep friendships, maybe they just don’t understand how to function within a friendship, or the deep joy they bring. Both my parents have passed away, but their friends are what made their passing easier (the love and support they provided), and both my brother and I are still in contact with all those special people, and always will be.

And then part of me wonders about personality (nature). As I say, I am shy with introverted tendencies. But I was brought up seeing and valuing friendship, and can’t imagine my life without it.

Well, actually I can.

When DH and I first moved back to my home country, we didn’t settle in the city we’re now in. We moved to a city where we knew not a soul. We lasted a year there. DH went to work, and I tried to get out and about with a baby and toddler. We didn’t get to know anyone on a friendship level. It was the worst year of our lives. Especially for DH, who’d left behind a huge circle of close friends he’d had since school.

We moved, and the new place had old friends, and we’ve since made new ones, as well.

I love DH and he’s my best friend, but we’re together all the time anyway, that the idea of it only ever being just us seems like such a waste! Variety is the spice of life, and even the thought of one weekend without seeing at least one set of friends at some point would seem wrong to me.

I find it odd to have to fill weekends with seeing people! I have done this at points in my life but generally when I was quite unhappy and being with others was kind of white noise, a distraction from everything else.

I think many people myself included have found so called friends to often be of the fairweather kind. When my parents died in my 20s no one I knew could relate or empathise. I had no support whatsoever. Ditto when I had my eldest child as a single parent. I still am sociable and friendly but 20 odd years on I have given up on expecting anything from anyone, that way you don't get disappointed. I find it bizarre how some people seem to have loads of others around them who do things for them, can be phoned at 3am or whatever, I've never had more than 1 of those and for most of my life I've not had anyone.

I have given up on expecting anything from anyone

That really stands out for me.

It’s never occurred to me to expect anything from anyone.

And yet, people have been there for me when needed, just as I have been there for them.

It’s never occurred to me to expect that from them, though.

But Merchant if, having been there for others, they then weren't there for you, I predict you'd feel differently.

I have done lots for so called friends my whole life because fundamentally I'm a kind and generous person. However time and again I found that when I was in need there was nothing forthcoming, no one to support or help me. I have realised that doesn't happen. Whilst it won't stop me offering help and support to others, I don't bother any more helping those user 'friends' who weren't there for me.

But Merchant if, having been there for others, they then weren't there for you, I predict you'd feel differently.

You’re right, and I’m really sorry that you have been continually let down by people.

@Grenlei. I can see where you’re coming from and i also don’t especially want to fill my weekends with socializing, but I enjoy a certain amount.

But, being let down at times by friends has actually made friendships easier for me. I accept that people let you down sometimes and don’t let it bother me- we’re all human and thoughtless at times.

I also lost a parent in my 20’s and most people were hopeless, including extended family. Only one friend really offered support and I learned something about being a better friend myself, IYSWIM. I don’t avoid people who are grieving or going through difficult times ( I might have before).
I think it’s resulted in stronger friendships and gas turned a couple of friendly acquaintances into proper friends.

@Grenlei. Seen your update. I agree that there are definitely some users out there- but there are some lovely people as well. I keep a sharp eye out for the nice ones and they’re the people I make an effort with long-term!

I think the people on here with the friendship groups seem to have an equal footing
It's not down to 1 person to keep the friendship going.Its equal.

Whereas for me and many others,it was us asking, organising things all the time.
So for me,I had to step away.And it proved my point,nobody rang and arranged anything.It was like I didn't exist.

And of course I miss going out,having a meal or a drink.But you can't force people to be friends with you.

borderline I don't think it is always intentional. Some people really are useless at organising things and find it difficult to stay on top of their lives. I know a few friends like this, most things are in disarray, there is no harm intended. Just haphazard. They show up for things that have been organised, because that is all they can manage. It is not you.
With type I always cut some slack, they make lovely friends and usually care very much. Often they have many children, lots of balls in the air.

Obviously if you have friends that are meticulously well organised apart from when it comes to meeting up and arranging things with you, it is time to pull back, or find out if there is more to it.

I rarely give up on good friendships unless they become toxic, even with the ones that are a pain at times. For me friendship is too important.

This is why I prefer groups sometimes. You can get away with a few flakes, if someone cancels last minute you've still got some company. If your one to one friend is a flake you don't.

I'm not generally a huge fan of management psychology, but I had some coaching at work which I found very insightful into some of these issues around friendship and relationships which I think a lot of people could benefit from.

One of the things which it highlighted for me is that your relationships with colleagues can be massively influenced by your personality, your style of communication and the way you approach your work. So for example people who push deadlines and get everything done at the last minute tend to really irritate hyper-organised people who prioritise process above all else. People who are very empathetic and expressive are often offended by those who keep everything to themselves and don't discuss their feelings etc.

This helped me understand that sometimes the friction you get in professional relationships isn't to do with the quality of the work per se as much as the way the work is delivered and the way professional relationships are managed.

I think a lot of this is quite instructive in friendships as well and no doubt in families and it would be really helpful if people could think about this a bit. So for example you have organisers, like BorderlineHappy taking offence at the fact that other people don't step up on the organising front. Which is understandable but unrealistic. Some people just don't have the organisational skills or drive or are too busy to get it done.

Others are more shy and prefer to be at the fringes of things as opposed to front and centre.

Also some people are really uncomfortable with big friendship groups, preferring one-on-one meetings, while others thrive in the spotlight.

The problem is we all take this much too personally. Nine times out of ten someone's reaction to this isn't a personal rejection of others, its to do with elements of their personality which they have limited control over and don't fully understandetc. So people get the hump because a friend hasn't texted back within a specified period of time but the friend may hate texting or feel anxious about it. Some people find it intrusive and bullying to be chased for a meeting or a response whereas to others its entirely natural. People whose parents didn't tend to have friends as children may feel threatened and overwhelmed by large social groups. Etc etc.

We all need to get better at understanding the impact that personal styles of intercommunication have on our ability to relate to other people and I think schools and universities should introduce some of this. A lot of friendships could be saved and a lot of pointless and draining arguments could be avoided.

I'm sure that half of the threads on here ("she didn't respond to my WhatsApp so I blocked her" etc), would vanish if people got a bit more self-aware about this.

@thepeopleversuswork that is a v useful post. I am an organiser, and yes, I am often annoyed that others do not step up. Must learn not to take personally.

@ thepeopleversuswork of course you take it personal,if the people you thought where friends don't bother about you.

These people can organise when it suits them.

Look I get people have different levels of friendship.I understand that if your happy to be the organiser of the group.Crack on

But i was unhappy with the situation,so I removed myself.

I got sick of being used when people had nobody else to go out with.And I got the phonecall to go to a christening or party on the day it was happening.No I got some self respect and put myself first.And in this moment in time it suits me.And that's fine.

I move around a lot for work, and used to make an effort to make friends. But I found all the going out and making small talk miserable. At some point, a lightbulb moment happened and I stopped doing it. I'm much happier this way. Yes, I spend most of my time alone, but TBH, given that I have a stressful job, I need it to unwind. I love getting in and shutting the door, knowing I won't see anyone unless I want to. I always regret making arrangements with people when it is time to meet up with them and while I'm out, I frequently can't wait to escape and go home.

BorderlineHappy but your attitude seems so unnecessarily punitive and self-defeating. You seem determined to see things as personal sleights when they are usually just down to different personalities and its not a realistic approach. You're basically saying: "you have to be exactly like me or I won't bother with you."

"These people can organise when it suits them". Some of them can't. I speak from experience: I used to be really really bad at organising stuff. I just hadn't ever had to do it. I've taught myself to be a lot better but it still doesn't come naturally and if I'm honest I don't really enjoy it. But I do have other qualities which make me a good friend: I'm empathetic and open and fairly extrovert and I make time for people. But if you relied on me to be number 1 party organiser and spreadsheet czar and chief sender of follow-up texts I'm always going to let you down.

Likewise you may not be the life and soul. I don't know. It doesn't make you a bad friend, it just makes you a different kind of friend.

So many people seem to have a "one strike and you're out" approach to friendship which seems ridiculously hard-line and inflexible and ultimately seems to hurt them more than it hurts the offending friend. You fail to hold your end up at organising a get-together and immediately you're discarded. You don't respond to a text message and you're blocked. You describe yourself as having been "used" because someone asked you to go for a drink. You seem to be jumping to the nastiest and most cynical conclusion possible about people's motives in every possible case.

Of course if you want to conduct your life like this go ahead: its your life and your friendships and you can do what you want. I am just suggesting to you that ultimately you're doing yourself more harm than good and that if you were a bit more open to the fact that people are individuals with different priorities and styles you might actually find the whole business of friendship a bit easier and less fraught.

Loneliness is a huge problem in the U.K. and it's such a shame.
I couldn't imagine not having friends to speak too but I guess I'm lucky.
I've been very fortunate to make friends easily and can hap the hind leg off a donkey

Yup, my daughter is like this. She annoyed one really good friend this way, with no going back but has no comprehension she is doing it. Most mates make up with her again later.

Some people just like drama.

@BorderlineHappy

Totally agree with you love! As I've explained my situation in a PP it's very exhausting to be the person who is instigating all contact and very upsetting that when you've been NC for a while because of life etc that friend doesn't check in on you. The friend I mentioned earlier didn't contact me when I'd had a stillbirth or even when I had my son in June. Another close friend in secondary school who I'd lost contact with I tried to reconnect when I was getting married to try and get the gang back together, every lunch I'd set up she would let us down on the day so I stopped instigating.

I don't understand that the posters who are debating against this seem to think we are strange to want to give up on these friends. Either they are happy to be treated like that by some friends or they have much nicer friends who put in as much effort in to the friendship as they do. And I think it all boils down to the fact you should get out as much as you put in such as emotional/physical support, fun, contact and reliability.

And I can't express enough that most people do make friends perfectly well, it's just that they fizzle out. And as you get older you're maybe in the same job for years so you don't meet anyone new or you are retired or take a career break and you have less opportunities to make new friendships. Like I said I was looking forward to meeting other new mums at baby groups but covid struck again with that one. And considering I've been with DH since I had just turned 17 I can sustain a very good relationship with people and have got on with most people I've ever worked with.

Also I agree with what someone said earlier about not drinking alcohol. I also don't drink don't drink alcohol as i get an allergic reaction to it, but friends drop you like a sack of spuds when you don't drink.

@thepeopleversuswork
I think you need to take what borderline says with a pinch of salt. I don't think borderline exercises 'one strike and you are out' nor do we have all the details. I think she's obviously been ground down by constantly being the instigator. And I think it's nothing to actually do with the other friend organising something and them being bad at it, it's more to do with the fact that friends don't text 'hey, how are you'. It's always left to borderline and that shouldn't be the case, friends should have as much invested in the friendship as you do.

MrsMarrio maybe. I obviously don't know the specifics of what BorderlineHappy was talking about. She may be right and obviously its up to the individual to decide what their general friendship boundaries are and no-one should tolerate being used or neglected.

My point was a more general one that a lot of people seem to take the attitude that if their friends don't exactly mirror them in their approach to way they manage the friendship then they aren't worthy of being friends and should be discarded. And this doesn't really allow for the breadth of human personalities and lifestyles that exist.

There are plenty of people with legitimate grievances over friends who have not treated them well but there seem to be a lot of people on this thread basically extrapolating that out to suggest that this invalidates the whole idea of friendship: "meh, its not worth the grief". And that strike me as throwing the baby out with the bathwater.

Friends even imperfect friends are so massively life-enriching and it disturbs me that people can't see the value in them.

I have a few close friends but they're very much friendships where we don't need to talk every day and can easily pick up where we left off.

I like my own company and I like my own space and time to do my hobbies. I also like to meet up with friends but it isn't the be all and end all for me.

I used to feel a little jealous of other people's photos of girly holidays and nights out where there are twenty close friends posing by the pool or with pornstar martinis in their hands. Then I remembered I would actually find that hell on Earth and utterly exhausting!

I've lost touch with all my high school friends and those I grew up with because I moved away before social media was a thing and I never really kept in touch. I have a few close friends I met through work, hobbies and baby groups but only one "best" friend who, incidentally, I met years ago through work.

So yes, for my it isn't that unusual. Going on a night out with my friends once or twice a year is enough and a monthly coffee and chit chat but that's about as much as I can cope with. I've not missed it during lock down either.