To be concerned re this advice?

[Nicknamegoeshere]

My ex-husband told my ten year-old son over the phone tonight that if someone pushes him or hits him at playtime, he should push or hit back in "self-defence."

I'm personally quite horrified at this advice. Son says he knows it's wrong.

Advice please!

If a bully gets hit back they are unlikely to pick on that child again. If they know they won't get it back , their victim becomes fair game. He should indeed hit back.

The problem with hitting the bully back is that they then have (in their shit little minds) the green light to then go into all out fight mode, and many victims of bullies are smaller and weaker and will generally come out of it less well.

Great it they are evenly matched but bullies pick their victims well.

@MadgeMak So you would sanction your young daughter to take on 2 notorious school bullies, and you think she would come out of that well?

You kick up the biggest stink possible and get the school to protect her, or move her to a better environment,

I also agree with your ex, my 6 hit back, twice as hard, none of them are bullied, my 13 Yr old recently hurt another kid that had been winding her up verbally for a week, other kid hit my daughter so she ended it, kid is now to scared to go anywhere near her 👊 all of mine apart from the baby are also trained in MMA for this reason.

I agree with your ex aswell. And it is in fact the advice we give our daughter. Never hit first, but always hit back. Its called self defence.

Good advice from your ex. Never start a finish, but sure as heck finish it!

[quote peepercountry]@Shodan I guess it depends where you live/grew up. Whilst I appreciate that karate is good for giving time so you can get away & mental composure in reality fights are very scrappy with little time for roundhouse kicks or whatever & it's often better to bite, gouge eyes etc.
[/quote]
This.

This is by my dds do Brazilian JuJitsu. Fights always end up on the floor.

Schools do not deal with bullying properly and some even deny it’s happening. But it does. In every school.

But yes your ex is right.

I told my dc to hit back.
Never to start it but if someone hit them then to do it back.
I've seen kids that have not, that have gone for help, told a teacher and they've just been bullied more for it.
My dc have been in some scrapes while at school but they've never been bullied nor been a bully.
Some kids can't hit back, it's not in them to do it, like my 8 year niece at the moment. She tells teachers but sadly it still continues. Some kids are awful and rightly or wrongly, a taste of their own medicine is what's needed to knock it on the head.

@CressidaTheHeathen What do you think would have happened to me and my kids if I'd have physically hit my ex-husband?!!

@CressidaTheHeathen No amount of self-defence would have stopped his abuse.

@Shodan I guess it depends where you live/grew up. Whilst I appreciate that karate is good for giving time so you can get away & mental composure in reality fights are very scrappy with little time for roundhouse kicks or whatever & it's often better to bite, gouge eyes etc.

Self defence as taught in karate isn’t about roundhouse kicks though, it’s about stopping the perpetrator long enough to get away safely, so a strong block or a firm strike to stop the person. If you’re having to resort to kicks and punches it’s a different kind of conflict.

And no @Nicknamegoeshere no amount of self defence would stop an abusive partner, but you’re talking about a very different kind of dynamic which starts in an apparently loving relationship, not a playground scuffle.

I got beat the shit out of at school because I was taught not to hit someone back and let a teacher deal with it, this girl turned the waterworks on and got fuck all done, not so much as a telling off or detention while I had bruises everywhere and a black eye. I've told my kids to hit back if someone hits them.

[quote goldenharvest]@MadgeMak So you would sanction your young daughter to take on 2 notorious school bullies, and you think she would come out of that well?

You kick up the biggest stink possible and get the school to protect her, or move her to a better environment, [/quote]
It was a bit more nuanced than that, I certainly didn't tell her to take them on at all costs. It was a much more in depth conversation with a playing out of different scenarios, the general theme of which I outlined in my post. I didn't realise I had to give a blow by blow account of the conversation in order to stop people jumping to idiotic conclusions, but there we go.

As for kicking up the biggest stink possible to get the school to protect her. Did you not read my post properly? These particular kids have been like this for years, parents have "kicked up a stink", the result of which is their child being isolated "for their safety". What message does that send. to the bullies and to the child being bullied? Not what I want for my child.

@shodan great advice.
Self defense techniques like those taught in karate, if learnt properly can be used in every situation and will stop a bully in their track without resorting to hitting back. Also if the child is being attacked by more than one child or is much smaller than a single attacker then these techniques work, hitting back doesn't.
All kids should learn proper self defense.
I wish my son had started learning karate earlier - it would have saved us all a lot of tears.

@peepercountry

I didn't suggest roundhouse kicks. Attempting something like that would be foolish by the untrained. and even a trained karateka would be unlikely to use it in a fight. Elbows, fists, a nukite to the eyes/throat, even some floor techniques- these are used more in a real fight. I suspect your only reference is what you've seen on tv, which is highly stylised.

I must admit I'm curious as to what area you grew up in though, that you think 10 year olds bearing weapons in the playground isn't unusual?

Totally agree with the ex...
Unfortunately my small person was the one caught hitting back and the teacher hadn't seen the other kid hitting (that time or the numerous times before) and they got into trouble! Furious wasn't the word when the problem had been raised with the school already 😡

@Shodan I didn't say you did say that, as I said the main benefit of self defence is to buy you time so you can get away. Do you disagree?

I have seen enough real life fights & like I said they are scrappy & messy which you are not taught in karate. One of my college friends was a black belt, didn't stop him getting beat up pretty bad.

I never said 10 yr olds bearing weapons was usual did I? I grew up in inner London in a then pretty rough area. Unfortunately teenagers do stab & sometimes kill others teenagers over stupid reasons. I guess that's why when discussing conflict & fighting back the scenarios you talk about on here regarding hair pulling are not where my mind goes to. Where did you grow up?

From 2019

the Office for National Statistics last week showed at a near record level of just under 15,000 offences in a year - were overwhelmingly young males with almost half aged between 10 and 19.

YABU OP. My son moved up to big school and got attacked by a little shit. Was covered in blood was so horrible. He did not fight back. I told him if this kid dares to go for him again hit him back. Self defense. Dont want to see my little one covered in blood from being punched in the face multiple times by a bully ever again.

I'm not surprised. In provision I worked at (primary age) it was not uncommon for the kids to come into school with knives and razor blades.

Re the stats I mean.

You kick up the biggest stink possible and get the school to protect her, or move her to a better environment,

They do fuck all most cases.

Not now, but your son will end up really resenting you if he thinks it was more important to look virtuous than instill in him a way to empower himself in the playground if he is bullied and the teachers are ineffective.

@peepercountry Of course self-defence is to buy time to get away. It's also to try and avoid exactly the kind of fight you describe. Taught (and leant) properly, it's designed to stop a potential fight long before it gets to the eye-gouging and rolling around on the floor. It doesn't always work, but it gives you a better chance.

However, I will admit that it won't work at all if you attend a non-contact club, or if everything you know about karate is learnt from the telly. That isn't what I teach though.

Some dc must be too scared to fight back if there is a big group of bullies around them