To be concerned re this advice?

[Nicknamegoeshere]

My ex-husband told my ten year-old son over the phone tonight that if someone pushes him or hits him at playtime, he should push or hit back in "self-defence."

I'm personally quite horrified at this advice. Son says he knows it's wrong.

Advice please!

@Dddaddy

My son was bullied. And Badly. By 3 boys.

He was soft and had a speech impediment and they picked on him mercilessly.

He was kicked and hit and battered and he took it. He was hit across the face with a metal bar. Blacked his eye.

His cousin heard about it and he and some of his friends scared the shit out of the wee scrote. Didn’t even lay a finger on him but told him if they touched my son again they’d have them to deal with.

And that finished it.

But from that day forward I told DS. if someone hits you hit them back hard so they go down and stay down. And my brother showed him how to do it.

I have zero regrets.

This for example @GlummyMcGlummerson, and this poster continues to say school was useless. There are plenty of other accounts on this thread. And please don't say school did do something, if it'd had an effect all those children bullied wouldn't have had to go through that.

One of my dc was bullied (by a teacher's son) and the response and problem solving was worse than wet lettuce.

@Goosefoot

I agree that school is a unique context and that the same ‘rules’ don’t always apply as in adulthood. But we’re not simply talking about 10 year olds. The advice given here also applies to 15-16 year olds and they are also capable of causing real harm to one another.

Messaging is crucial but how many parents really get it right? And how many children grasp that violence should be deployed in a very limited way? Some children will internalize ‘if they hit you, hit back harder’ as ‘it’s OK to hit’...or ‘it’s fine to hit if you feel like you’ve been wronged’.

Yes definitely hit back , teach the bullies a lesson, and stand up for yourself.

I'm with the ex. Teachers won't do anything, I was bullied for 6 years straight, I was followed home and pushed in front of a bus, spat on, pulled down the stairs by my tie, molested, my things stolen and thats saying nothing of the relentless verbal abuse. My parents were up the school all the time about it. The teachers did nothing about it. The bullies got more of a bollocking from the bus driver who nearly hit me than they did from the school. But I never hit back.

What eventually put a stop to it was going after the main ringleaders.

My mum followed one home and banged on his front door and told his mother what he'd been up to and threatened police if it didn't stop. It didn't so she followed through and it still didn't stop so my older cousin came and waited for him after school and turns out he wasn't as brave when he was up against a boy who had a foot of height on him and no qualms about violence.

The other my dad caught when they were trying to wrestle my bag off me on the way home, pulled him off me by the throat and told him if he saw him near me again he would kill him.

I'll be telling my kids to always hit back. If you don't they'll never stop. Never start a fight but by all means finish one and be prepared to hurt them more than they are prepared to hurt you.

[quote Redolent]@Goosefoot

I agree that school is a unique context and that the same ‘rules’ don’t always apply as in adulthood. But we’re not simply talking about 10 year olds. The advice given here also applies to 15-16 year olds and they are also capable of causing real harm to one another.

Messaging is crucial but how many parents really get it right? And how many children grasp that violence should be deployed in a very limited way? Some children will internalize ‘if they hit you, hit back harder’ as ‘it’s OK to hit’...or ‘it’s fine to hit if you feel like you’ve been wronged’.[/quote]
I think many children are quite capable of understanding that the advice to hit back has limits, for example, only if the other person initiated the conflict, that taunting or teasing etc is not acceptable to incite another person to violence, or that if the person is weaker or smaller or impaired in some way it may be the wrong choice.

Clearly the parent giving the advice will need to try and communicate this sort of thing to the child, and carry on refining it over time. Often that happens pretty naturally though, as they talk together about things that have happened, situations they see around them, and so on. And it might be that some children need firmer boundaries as they are unable to decide what is right.

Teens of course are in a different situation, they know and can discern more, and often a bully may not be dealt with so simply. Most are pretty capable of understanding that, however, and in fact can see that it's so without anyone telling them. If your bully is a foot taller and a wall of muscle, or is likely to carry a knife, or is a member of a criminal gang, it's probably not a good idea to hit them back.

OTOH, at that age, it's not so often that one kid will hit another because they just have the self-control of a nine year old. Non-violent aggression is more common in teens and requires different solutions.

When I started junior school my friends and I were picked on by a much bigger girl who was a year ahead of us. She used to shove us, pull our hair and pinch us. When I went home and whinged to my father he took me into the back yard every night for a week and taught me to box. He told me next time she shoves you punch her in the nose. I did, and broke it! There was blood everywhere.

Of course I got the blame and my mother was called up to the school. She pointed out that the other girl was older and much bigger and I had only been defending myself.

The teacher asked me why I had punched her and I said that I believed attack was the best form of defence and I wanted to get her back for all the upset she has caused me and my friends. The teacher said "Thats a terrible way to think. Do you think Jesus would have done that?" "I dont know Miss, Jesus wasnt there. But I dont think she will be hitting us again."

I was right. The girl never came near us again.

I forgot quotation marks. Sorry, tired. I meant 'self defence' is no defence for punching someone else - blocking etc is completely different. Teach your kids actual self defence but claiming 'self defence' when actually you have hit someone really won't carry. I've seen it more than once and off the top of my head I can think of 8 separate occasions at work or with people I know who were hit, hit back harder and ended up charged with various violent offences.

It's clearly the unpopular opinion but to me a small child benefits from a black and white approach (no hitting) and for an older child the risks are too great to teach them to violently retaliate - although actual self defense has a place.

He's 100% right!

Imagine if someone had stopped Trump from becoming the nasty bully that he is.

Does anyone seriously think that if someone had just smacked Trump one in the mouth he'd have become a reformed character instead of an even greater asshole? Do you imagine that no one ever did?

What all of these and-he-never-came-near-us-again narratives lack is any sense of how the story continued for the bully, who in all likelihood just found a new victim. All you are really saying is that you don't give a stuff about any other victims as long as your child isn't one of them. The bully learns nothing from the encounter, rather the reverse.

@GlummyMcGlummerson Where I work, any violence results in suspension or expulsion

Same here (FE) - zero tolerance for violence and my son's primary school are very on it too. They aren't afraid of a suspension or intervention at all and I'll be looking for a secondary for him that's the same, they do exist. I started primary in the 90s, then went to 2 different high schools and all three acted swiftly for any violence

@BlackRibboner

Blimey. I don't agree! Surely you walk away, try and defuse, find an adult etc. - not get involved in a fight

Too right!

I'd always do my best to be non-violent so would try to instill that into my kids too. However, I think if they did hit someone at school in self defense, I would understand and would be unlikely to discipline them for it.

I think your ex is just trying to protect your son. Some people get extremely sensitive about topics like this especially if they've been bullied themselves - as we can see on this thread. It becomes impossible to argue with someone getting emotive and saying "what so you want our son to be a punching bag?!"

Anyway it sounds like your son is not particularly violent (says he knows it's wrong) so hopefully he will make the right decision. Kids often are capable of more than we give them credit for!

There is a big difference between two ten year olds in a fight, and two 18 year olds.

In reality are things that clear cut? are we talking about only hitting back if the kids are 10 & in the same school year & know of each other?

Most knife attacks on under 16s occur on the way home from school. Plenty of 11 & 12 yr olds get mugged by older kids at that time.

For a teacher you’re incredibly naive 🙄

@Nicknamegoeshere

What happened with speaking to a member of staff?!!

The fact that they don't do anything, or what they do is pointless, is high on my list not to bother.

I'm with your ex on this. I've always said to my two, don't start anything, but if someone hits you, make sure they don't get up to do it again.

Words are pointless.

I'm with your ex on this. I've always said to my two, don't start anything, but if someone hits you, make sure they don't get up to do it again.

Too bloody right. I wish I hadn't gone for the approach of telling ds to tell the teacher when he was been bullied. Their lack of action wrecked his primary school years. I would always tell him not to hit first, but if someone attacks him now, then make sure he finishes it.

OP I'm afraid I'm also with your ex here. I know it's not ideal but often schools are powerless to help. Mine gets told " dont ever start the fight,but finish it" . Also sent her to martial arts and got black belt.

I always told my kids they could hit back if needed. Example, when my DS was in primary, another boy tried out a few kicks on him. DS landed a punch back. Didn't happen again. Lessons learned all round. It's instinct to protect yourself, even if that means hitting back to ensure your future safety.

This saddens me. Watching children play and their perception of who did what and it was on purpose etc is often far from accurate.
They play games where they grab to put you in jail etc and accidents happen etc. So, as often happens, when playing a game one doesn't like the way he was grabbed in tig, it's okay to turn round and plant him one?

I've watched before as a child has ran near someone else pretending to be a dragon, arms flailing as fire, and caught them. The child has reported he hit me - we investigate - it was an accident the other says - I was being a dragon. But to many we don't talk, we just find them and hit them. 🤦‍♀️

I definitely think that it all depends on the situation as well.. different factors do play a part in this like the age of children.. etc also the children need to be wary that the bullies don't have 4 cousins in the year above with ASBO's lol u get my drift.. but I'd say thats more high school worries.. i do agree that you should hit back if someone hits you first but at the same time judge by the surroundings if you're alone and they have 10 people behind them then maybe not? Depends how brave you are! Suppose its different depending on the type of bully too and which area you live.. there could be many different outcomes either way

My husband has always told our sons that he never wants them to start a fight, but to make sure they hit someone back if someone hits them first.

I’m quite happy with that instruction to be honest.

I also agree with your ex.

Totally agree with ex . The only thing that ever worked for me at school and tell my dc the same . They are lovely boys so this hasn’t turned them into bullies or anything

Unfortunately some people are just horrible and “telling” the teacher doesn’t really work

Of course teachers have to give the official line of dont hit back come and tell us but the teachers i know tell their own dc ( as in their own dc not Their pupils ) the Exact same as I have

The problem is that adult strategies against bullying often don’t work for adults either. Just look at the number of threads on here about people being bullied in the workplace.
Now as adults the bully rarely uses violence because the police would be called & the bully would be sacked. Instead it’s nasty comments & excluding from lunch, and HR/management are the ones who are useless at tackling it. Often the only solution offered is to look for another job.

@copperoliver
To those that say hit back harder, finish it... what if they can’t? What then? Use a knife? what do you suggest?