To be concerned re this advice?

[Nicknamegoeshere]

My ex-husband told my ten year-old son over the phone tonight that if someone pushes him or hits him at playtime, he should push or hit back in "self-defence."

I'm personally quite horrified at this advice. Son says he knows it's wrong.

Advice please!

It's obviously best to walk away from a fight if you can. The trick is for a child to be 'cool', confident and nonchalant which can be intimidating. However that doesn't always work.

@hetanom

As an adult, if somebody I know were to hit me, I would be more equipped to defuse or extricate myself from the situation, and there would be clear consequences for the attacker once I told the authorities. Future attacks would also be unlikely.

As a DV victim suffering at the hands of my ex for years, none of the above is true.

[quote Nicknamegoeshere]@Redolent I agree. It's almost as if teach your kids one thing as a child (to hit back), but then they have to learn at some point as a young adult (you would hope) to employ other strategies.[/quote]
I agree. There’s a real disconnect between our experience of socialization at school - which is a very distinctive institution, claustrophobic, compulsory, limited in individual accountability - and what happen throughout our remaining adulthood. This discussion kind of negates this idea that children learn how to interact socially at school and that this can serve them well in life. In actual fact, the lesson here about violence and retaliation should positively be unlearnt by children once they leave school. This is not how conflict resolution works in adulthood and in the various other institutions and social circles we then go on to become part of.

But you certainly need some of those other strategies for secondary school not just when you become an adult.

As a DV victim suffering at the hands of my ex for years, none of the above is true

I'm sorry to hear that. Again, what's true for every person is subjective, I'm giving my personal opinion here, as I'm sure most people are. How we raise our children is obviously highly based on our own experiences. I maintain that I am better equipped to defuse such a situation than a child and so my advice may be different. Although as I went on to say, if my child was the victim of a one-sided attack, I would likely just report it to the police, meaning my response actually would NOT be any different to my response to an adult attacking me or any other adult I know.

@Redolent

^ To add to my last post:

Taking the law into your own hands isn't really a useful skill for later life: the way adults stand up for themselves is by involving the appopriate authorities. How to do this effectively a very useful skill to learn.

Precisely.

Teaching children from a young age "it's ok to hit back", they don't hear "It's ok to hit in a very particular set of circumstances" - they hear "it's ok to hit". What will you do when they're a violent teenager because they were taught this? Or a violent adult? Or the one accused of bullying because the mentality has always been "violence is ok if it's on your terms?"

Not violence related but I've decided to distance myself from a friend of mine because she employed this very strategy with her DD, but instead of saying she can hit back she always told her "if someone's horrible to you be horrible back". Thinking it will set her up in good stead for standing up for herself. It's hasn't. Her DD is now 7 and is so mean to my kids, especially my little 4yo boy, because IMO she was taught from so young that she has a right to be horrible when she sees fit. It's not her DD's fault - How is she supposed to differentiate the circumstances at such a young age? She's also been accused of bullying at her school. A better lesson would have been to teach her the coping skills for when someone is horrible to her. Within that she can still stand up for herself without lowering herself to the other person's level.

Combatting nastiness with nastiness and violence with violence only ever begets nastiness and violence.

I agree. There’s a real disconnect between our experience of socialization at school - which is a very distinctive institution, claustrophobic, compulsory, limited in individual accountability - and what happen throughout our remaining adulthood. This discussion kind of negates this idea that children learn how to interact socially at school and that this can serve them well in life. In actual fact, the lesson here about violence and retaliation should positively be unlearnt by children once they leave school. This is not how conflict resolution works in adulthood and in the various other institutions and social circles we then go on to become part of

Reminds me of another institution where it is very common to hear people talk about the rules being different to "real life" –prison.

[quote Thewithesarehere]@GlummyMcGlummerson
That sounds like some utopia. I drive every morning on a road full of young kids walking to school. How in the world will any of your ideas work in a place like that?
Did you ever think that may be you don’t see anything and think all is going swimmingly is because it is happening where you can’t see it? [/quote]
I didn't say bullying doesn't happen, I said it's not true that it doesn't get dealt with. And yes it does happen outside of school, and we have a duty of care to address bullying when it does. Why would you think I didn't also mean outside of school?

If you think a pastoral team and safeguarding procedures are a "utopia" I really would question what kind of schools you know about (or think you know about). It's standard in any given school to have both.

In an ideal world the best response would be to walk away, tell someone in authority and the hitter/bully would be dealt with summarily, appropriately and in a way that would prevent any recurrence.

Sadly, it's not an ideal world and this almost never happens.

So, living in the real world, the best thing is to attempt to walk away but if the hitting/bullying continues, then fight back. It IS the only way that the bullies will stop.
My son's friend is a big-built 12yo - he's almost as tall and big as his father - but he's a shy boy, and has already been picked on at high school. It carried on until he turned on the boy who was kicking the back of his legs, and shoved him hard enough that the bully boy could feel how strong he was. He also told him to stop or worse would come. Funnily, that boy hasn't touched him since. My son's friend does stay out of the way of the bigger bullies though - he now spends most break times either in the library or helping out in the office to avoid the playground. The school is USELESS though (seriously, it's a terrible school).

@hetanom

It's absolutely not true that teachers do nothing about bullies. Where I work, any violence results in suspension or expulsion

It may not be true for you, but that doesn't mean it's not for others.

It's not THAT long since I was at school. Certainly nowhere near as far back as the 80s.

Then like I said in my post you need to address it with the school or the LA if the school isn't fulfilling its duty of care.

TBH the parents I know who say "my son got bullied and the school did NOTHING" are the ones who stormed in saying "my Johnny is being bullied do something about it" and it turns out that actually Johnny started the whole thing, threw the first punch and the other person punched back. And the situation escalates and escalates, and the child (could be your child who you've told to hit back) is being labelled a bully, and both boys face the same consequences, because they did the very same thing.

Is that really the only outcome you think is suitable?

@GlummyMcGlummerson Absolutely. As an experienced primary teacher with a specialism in behavioural disorders, I have worked with a significant amount of children that use hitting out if something is not going their way or to get what they want. Even for something very minor. It's almost as if it is the default reaction because they don't know of, or have not been expressly taught or modelled any other way.

GlummyMcGlummerson if you go back and read my posts I think you're going off on a big tangent that has little to do with me there.

@Nicknamegoeshere yes exactly, I teach secondary where I sometimes see the effects of this with children who aren't necessarily any more emotionally intelligent than primary kids (plus teenage hormones coursing through them) but are much bigger and can deliver heavier punches. The "hit him back" rhetoric actually makes my job tougher than it should be and I really do think it's counter productive. I can't think of an instance where it's delivered a positive outcome.

What would we know though ey we only work with children every single day

Anyway the more I think about it, the more I think that the advice for a child really should be very similar to the advice of an adult:

You should never be violent to anyone.

If someone attacks you and you can get away safely (for example, they hit you once but you are then able to then leave the situation) you should do so, and immediately report it to the police.

If they are attacking you and you need to fight back to protect yourself and/or end the attack, then you should do so (aka self-defence).

If they attack you again at a later date, the same thing applies. Presumably (hopefully!) the police would take greater action on a second assault.

hetanom it wasn't a tangent at all it was absolutely relevant to the discussion

@hetanom

Anyway the more I think about it, the more I think that the advice for a child really should be very similar to the advice of an adult:

You should never be violent to anyone.

If someone attacks you and you can get away safely (for example, they hit you once but you are then able to then leave the situation) you should do so, and immediately report it to the police.

If they are attacking you and you need to fight back to protect yourself and/or end the attack, then you should do so (aka self-defence).

If they attack you again at a later date, the same thing applies. Presumably (hopefully!) the police would take greater action on a second assault.

This with bells on hetanom!

hetanom it wasn't a tangent at all it was absolutely relevant to the discussion hmm

Not to me, though, that was my point. You were replying to me on a bit of a rant when I hadn't even said I would tell my kid to hit back.

@hetanom ah, fair enough, consider it an address to everyone on the thread

The main concern for me would be my child not telling me. I know from my time at school that was quite common, and an adult really is better able to deal with things like this than a child (in terms of reporting, etc.). People at my school thought that if they told their parents, nothing would get done and the bullying would just get worse. I know personally I wouldn't allow "nothing" to get done, but I have to assume those kids' parents probably would've said the same thing too!

Sad as it is, this thread shows that as a parent you cannot count on school/teachers to protect the dc.

So what is your suggestion op? How do you think we should teach our dc to protect and stand up for themselves or 'diffuse' the situation, not having the capacity and experience grown ups have.

Just walking away from bullies doesn't work and you know it, so what to do when even teachers haven't got the tools to keep thing amicable in class?

hetanom yes I think it can depend on the family and how you're raised. I grew up in a very "We Don'T Talk About Difficult Things" household, my parents were closed books on stuff they didn't really need to be closed about. My grandad got cancer when I was 13 for example and I only found out in adulthood as no one told me. I wasn't bullied but if I was I wouldn't have been confident enough to tell my parents. If you're an open family from the start, and discuss problems (including ones you're personally having) as a family I think it helps cultivate children more likely to open up.

That's my theory anyway (it may be hogwash)

@giantangryrooster

Sad as it is, this thread shows that as a parent you cannot count on school/teachers to protect the dc.

So what is your suggestion op? How do you think we should teach our dc to protect and stand up for themselves or 'diffuse' the situation, not having the capacity and experience grown ups have.

Just walking away from bullies doesn't work and you know it, so what to do when even teachers haven't got the tools to keep thing amicable in class?

I think a good starting point would be to not have the attitude that the school definitely won't do anything about it.

I haven't read all replies but where on this thread has it shown that schools do nothing?

@Nicknamegoeshere

What happened with speaking to a member of staff?!!

Don't waste your time. I told the teacher that I had told my DS to hit back and if she had a problem with that then she could speak to me.

This was after the same kid hurt my boy 3 times in 3 days, the last being when he stabbed my boy in the face with a pencil and she did nothing.

My DS did end up hitting the little shit and the bully never touched him again.

When my DD15, who is quiet and studious, was bullied by a boy in year 7, who kept taking her pen. We discussed it as a family.

My suggestions were mostly humour, as these worked formeat school, I wrote his name on a special crayon, bought her an electric shock pen etc etc. He didn't stop.

In the end, we agreed that she should slowly and deliberately push something of his off of the desk. Whilst staring at him. When he bent to pick it up, she pushed something else off and so on.

In the end the whole class were laughing at him and he never ever did it again.

When she moved school to an all girls school, she was bullied for her vocabulary, the class giggling every time she answered a question. The school’s solution was for her not to put her hand up. Not acceptable.

So we discussed it as a family. I suggested that when the did that:
She stop speaking and stare blankly at them until they finish.
She imitate their giggling in an exagerrated manner.
She asks the teacher in front of the whole class whether they felt this was acceptable.
She explain what she was saying in short easy sloooow speech, just so that they could "get" it.

She chose her method, pointing out to each and every class teacher, when it happened, that they may need to interpret for some of the class, and it stopped.

Fights happen all of the time in her school, but she eye rolls at drama and steps away from morons. I bought her books on assertiveness and managing difficult people. We read them together.

My son manages to avoid being bullied mostly through similar methods, humour and avoiding idiots.

There are assertive alternatives to being a victim. If anyone gets violent, I would call the police. End of.

@Redolent

I can sympathise with the idea of stopping bullying in its tracks / the uselessness of schools. But the problem is that parents are dishing out this advice as though it’s as absolute and foolproof. “Aim to end the fight”, “hit back twice/ten times as hard/on the nose” and they won’t bother you again.

That might work some time, even most of the time - but there are other times where it can backfire spectacularly. What if you genuinely can’t ‘end it’ because they’re physically stronger than you? What if they get their mates involved, or a weapon? At what point should the child walk away rather than believing that they can end every such situation with their own physical strength?

At some point, the advice surely changes too. You’re 18 years old, get shoved by someone - do you really then aim to hit them back harder?

Actually, I think the advice does change as they get older, and that's ok - at least it should be if you've communicated with them properly about it.

There is a big difference between two ten year olds in a fight, and two 18 year olds. There is a different capacity to cause real damage, there is also likely to be a whole different dynamic going on if an 18 year old is physically violent in the first place. An 18 year old who is being physically aggressive to you is not the same as a 10 year old doing the same thing, and the same solutions won't work and could be dangerous.

Maybe part of the bigger problem is that so many assume what we tell kids has to be what we would tell adults, as if their problems are likely to be the same, or they will have to use the same solutions as adults.