To be concerned re this advice?

[Nicknamegoeshere]

My ex-husband told my ten year-old son over the phone tonight that if someone pushes him or hits him at playtime, he should push or hit back in "self-defence."

I'm personally quite horrified at this advice. Son says he knows it's wrong.

Advice please!

I think parents need to teach their kids never to lose control if they are in a fight. If someone attacks you, defend yourself of course - but if you are blinded by rage you will probably not put up a very effective defence. Stand your ground, but be calm, and hit hard.

Child-on-child violence is not the same as adult-on-adult. Usually with adults it is a random attack or some sort of domestic argument. In these circumstances running away is usually good advice - get yourself out of the situation.

When you're a child though, this doesn't apply. Often you are stuck with the same group of kids around you from age 5 to 16. Running away might work for one instance, but the next day you are back with the attackers again. You can't run away for ten years - sooner or later they'll catch you and give you a beating. Much better to stand your ground, fight back, and let them know that they need to find someone else to pick on. Otherwise you'll be running scared your whole childhood.

@Suzi888 I know you understood but I'm saying I'd still say the same like most of the other posters said they agree with her ex husband. Hit him back. My opinion won't change, hit them back. Send your child to self defence classes if you wish. But never let anyone bully you no matter what.

I don't think anyone thinks a child who is being attacked shouldn't defend themselves but all this "finish it", "hit back harder" is hilarious. Are you all raising mini Ross Kemps?! 😂

Any self defence will teach you to try & run first.

No wonder we have such a violent and selfish society if these are the messages parents are giving their children

and still nothing about the children who are the aggressors. THEY are the ones making it a violent society.

I'm not with hit back harder, but I'm definitely in "defend yourself" camp and if that means a punch? do it.

@Nicknamegoeshere

What happened with speaking to a member of staff?!!

You got told 'stop telling tales' when I was a kid.

@peepercountry

I don't think anyone thinks a child who is being attacked shouldn't defend themselves but all this "finish it", "hit back harder" is hilarious. Are you all raising mini Ross Kemps?! 😂

It’s male wisdom framed in macho language. Very odd to hear it repeated uncritically and verbatim on Mumsnet.

@yomommasmomma I'm with you...

Even the most aggressive situations and bullying can be dealt with without hitting back (hitting back is not self defense) the problem is that most kids never learn it because they are just taught to hit back and harder.

It might be a lovely kumbyya lesson for your conscience but the psychological disadvantage you are passing on to the softer, more reticent kids is damaging.

This^. OP think very carefully what you tell your ds. I was taught by my mum never to fight back, tell a teacher, be the nice good girl. It resulted in me being badly bullied throughout school to the extent that I failed all my exams because I was constantly truanting.

I am an adult now and have a really difficult relationship with my mother as I feel like she didn't give me any confidence in myself, or care about my wellbeing and was more concerned with being seen to do the right thing than protecting my physical and mental health.

I teach my children to never bully but hit back if someone hits them. Its better to give them confidence in their own ability to defend themselves than rely on the benevolence of a transient teacher to protect them.

@munzero But we'd tell our young people to inform the police rather than hit back if at all possible, right?

It’s male wisdom framed in macho language. Very odd to hear it repeated uncritically and verbatim on Mumsnet

What rubbish. My stance on this comes from 17 years of karate training, being a karate instructor to both children and adults, and teaching self-defence for women. And I am most definitely female.

Sometimes a punch, or a push, or a hard striking block is necessary. We all wish it wasn't, but the fact is that some people in this world don't adhere to the 'rules'.

It depends on the situation & how it is dealt with, or not, by the school. Those who think simply telling the teacher is going to work have either been incredibly lucky or are incredibly naive.

I was bullied a lot at school, mainly verbally, but sometimes physically. I was far too anxious to approach a teacher to ask for help. They chose to turn a blind eye anyway. If you think about it a lot of things at school seem as if they're set up to highlight those who don't fit in. Terrible for your self-esteem when you're always the last one standing when teams are picked & the 2 teams argue about not wanting you & preferring to have 1 less person than you on their team. All in front of the teacher, who did nothing. Doesn't exactly instil trust in those who were supposed to protect us. On occasion, teachers would join in on the joke abuse too.

I can truly understand why parents would urge their DC to stand up for & defend themselves or seek help on their behalf. I wish my parents had cared enough to do the same instead of simply blaming me for the situation.

The point is though, that DC should be able to approach staff in the knowledge that problems will be dealt with swiftly. Unfortunately, in the real world, most staff are either at best, not trained to deal with these situations, at worst uninterested, or most likely just too busy.

We told our dc that if someone is hurting then and they won’t stop when asked/told, it is perfectly acceptable to push them away hard then inform an adult. Dh has said similar to your ex, but I honed it back a little.

Dc has done this once to the class “bully” and it was the only time he ever tried it on dc.

I don’t advocate violence, but agree with appropriate self defence.

In primary no I wouldnt encourage to hit back as teachers should be supervising closely. Secondary I would be def saying hit back

I posted this on the duplicate

I think it is good advice, never hit first but defend yourself and that can include hitting back aggressively to stop it. I have seen too many videos taken by teenage kids watching and doing nothing about it of of a bully pushing and hitting a child and escalating it until they respond and protect themselves (friends child was in the video)

And despite viewing the video...the fuckwit teachers decided to sanction both kids because "all violence is wrong". My friend was furious. I helped her write to the school and point out the provisions of the following:

Section 3 (1) of the Criminal Law Act 1967 states: "A person may use such force as is reasonable in the circumstances in the prevention of crime, or in effecting or assisting in the lawful arrest of offenders or suspected offenders or of persons unlawfully at large." .

This enshrines the right to self-defence. What it doesn't allow is self defence to continue indefinitely. Ie if the victim punches the assailant to the ground, if they then continue to stamp on their head, then self defence would fail at this point.

Despite this, said fuckwit teacher wouldn't back down (cited their union advice - what the fuck it's got to do with the union?) so I helped her complain to the governors who had to advise the Head Teacher that they could not over ride the inalienable rights of an individual (even a child) to protect themselves.

When this became well known with parents other examples came about of teachers making up rules based on politically correct beliefs that defy the law!

I wish that were the case in primary school, my kids go to a good school but there’s one playground supervisor watching 100 kids in the playground. If my kids tell her they’ve been hit she basically comforts them and sends them off to play. If they tell the teacher both kids get a “be kind” chat and the hitting continues, only if it happens in sight of the teacher does anything else happen so yes, I tell my primary ages kids to defend themselves and if that means hitting back I’m fine with that.

@Redolent Ross Kemp is a proper faux hard man!

I'm still waiting to hear how you "finish it" when a kid has a weapon.

I live near an inner London secondary. Last week I saw the following play out. A 14/15 yr old big (over 6ft) kid walking down the road with his hood up, could look intimidating to some. Another kid pulls up on a moped, this kid is smaller, thinner but his driving & body language was very aggressive. He's shouting "are you X"? The school kid whips his hood off, adjusts his posture to be less threatening , & says "no, no, that's not me". Other kid ponders for a bit then drives off. I ask big kid if he's ok & the hood goes back up with a grunt. That's reality.

I'm still waiting to hear how you "finish it" when a kid has a weapon

Obviously the first thing to do would be to get away, but if necessary there are options available to you- a throat strike, for instance, or a kick to the knee. You can block and twist, you can go low (drop down to a crouch) and strike upwards, either to the groin, if it's 'open', or to push the weapon-holding arm up. You can stamp on a foot, stamp down the shin, or dodge to come round the back and strike in the kidneys.

You can block, grab the arm, twist it and use your other hand to force the attacker down to the floor by the shoulder.

I could go on, if you like. But the average 10 year old doesn't tend to have a weapon on them at playtime, fortunately, and so the above measures wouldn't be needed.

Most of the bullying I've heard of (and these come from students I have taught karate to) is pushing, hair-pulling and the odd punch to the stomach. Those kids that have been bullied, that come to us for training, are shown how to deflect first. Punching and kicking comes later, and only when we are certain that they've taken on the basic lesson first- that they never, ever, start a fight.

But OP, look at the flip side.

You say you were bullied yourself and went on to be abused by a partner.

Surely this would make you more likely to want to instil self defence techniques into your children so they’re less likely to suffer the same fate?

I was bullied non stop at school, did the right thing. Told my parents, told the teacher - nothing changed. ever

Eventually I was punched in the back of the head outside, I turned round and in a blind rage full of tears lashed out and actually fractured the bully's nose.

I felt awful, but the bullying stopped.

I don't know what I'd tell my kids as they get older, but this is what happened to me. I wish I'd hit the person sooner tbh

You know that trying to get the police to actually investigate an assault that happens in school is incredibly difficult?

I had to go and park my arse in the station and say I wasn’t leaving until the inspector came out and explained to me why his officers weren’t investigating an actual assault before they even interviewed my child.

In my daughter's class there are 2 kids who are notorious bullies and have been practically since day 1 in reception, they are now in year 4, the school has been woeful in it's tackling of them. The most recent victim of this pair now spends their lunchtime break sat in the school library whilst the other kids play out. That is the school response to bullying, to in effect punish the victim under the guise of keeping them safe. Reasoning with, talking to, punishing and reprimanding - none of these have made any difference to these particular bullies. I've told my daughter she has my blessing to do whatever she needs to do to keep herself safe should these bullies turn their attention to her, and that I will 100% back her up. If schools are ineffective at dealing with bullies, and many are, then most parents are going to advise their kids to do the same.

@Shodan I guess it depends where you live/grew up. Whilst I appreciate that karate is good for giving time so you can get away & mental composure in reality fights are very scrappy with little time for roundhouse kicks or whatever & it's often better to bite, gouge eyes etc.

I don't disagree that schools can be useless with bullying & bullying happens often to adults too.

The OP specifically said if someone pushes him or hits him at playtime, he should push or hit back in "self-defence."

So it may be a one off incidence & not bullying. I have no problem with self defence but I stand by the fact that you gauge the situation. However I didn't realise we were just talking about 7 yr olds pulling each other's hair.

@Whatisthisfuckery

I can’t believe all these parents are teaching their kids to stand there and be victims. It’s bad enough when you can’t fight back, let alone having the shit kicked out of you when you can but have been told not to. Poor kids.

^This. My parents (Mum actually - Dad didn't seem bothered) always told me to seek help. It often didn't come and kids were great at catching me when there were no teachers around.

I never learned to stand up for myself and it's too late now.

Better equipment for life would be to tell me not to go running to authority figures as most of the fuckers don't care about rules/laws being broken.