To be concerned re this advice?

[Nicknamegoeshere]

My ex-husband told my ten year-old son over the phone tonight that if someone pushes him or hits him at playtime, he should push or hit back in "self-defence."

I'm personally quite horrified at this advice. Son says he knows it's wrong.

Advice please!

@Goosefoot

You say that children are capable of understanding nuanced limits to violence. I’m sure some are, but I’m seeing a lack of nuance in this very thread. Just aphorisms trotted our as final and absolute solutions. Make sure you “end it”. How on earth can any child guarantee that they can do that successfully every time? A prolonged fight - which is what it well might turn - is a risky and unpredictable endeavour. If someone “hits” you - children’s interpretation of that can vary so much. As someone said, a nudge or push too far - playground games - can readily escalate into violence.

There are children instigating violence every day who have been given this advice by their parents and think they are following it through accurately.

It’s interesting, from reading this thread, that so much of this advice is passed down In our society by men, who remain the majority perpetrators of physical violence. In no other area of parenting, perhaps. would we accept male wisdom so blithely. But then parents are driven by fear when it comes to this discussion, which is in itself irrational.

This saddens me. Watching children play and their perception of who did what and it was on purpose etc is often far from accurate.
They play games where they grab to put you in jail etc and accidents happen etc. So, as often happens, when playing a game one doesn't like the way he was grabbed in tig, it's okay to turn round and plant him one?
I've watched before as a child has ran near someone else pretending to be a dragon, arms flailing as fire, and caught them. The child has reported he hit me - we investigate - it was an accident the other says - I was being a dragon. But to many we don't talk, we just find them and hit them. 🤦‍♀️

@Strictly1, do you have younger children? I think you are being very naive. A lot of posters on here are talking about teenagers. Not many teen bullies are just misunderstood souls “being a dragon”. Many of them are nasty fuckers, enjoying asserting themselves over those they perceive to be weaker.

Don’t underestimate the impact that relentless bullying, day after day, can have on adolescents, and sadly schools can’t sort that out. They can’t be watching every corridor, pe changing room, lunch queue, playground etc at all times, never mind walking home from school etc. They can’t deal with every conflict through measures and calm discussion.

I haven’t rtft as it’s long but a lot of bullying is actually not physical though and can be name calling/rumours about appearance/looks/smell/culture/race.... what do you tell children who are subjected to this?

I've told my kids that.

My DS is the kindest gentle soul you would ever want to meet.

I tried really hard to do it all the right way.

Doing that depends on a school where they are going to deal with bullying properly.

There wasn’t any options for a school to move him to. Before someone suggests that. And why should he have to move anyway?

Like when they were kicking the pure shite out of him on the bus. Their answer was could I run him to school.

If the school are useless and nothing is being done, what else do you suggest?

@Artesia

*This saddens me. Watching children play and their perception of who did what and it was on purpose etc is often far from accurate. They play games where they grab to put you in jail etc and accidents happen etc. So, as often happens, when playing a game one doesn't like the way he was grabbed in tig, it's okay to turn round and plant him one? I've watched before as a child has ran near someone else pretending to be a dragon, arms flailing as fire, and caught them. The child has reported he hit me - we investigate - it was an accident the other says - I was being a dragon. But to many we don't talk, we just find them and hit them. 🤦‍♀️*

@Strictly1, do you have younger children? I think you are being very naive. A lot of posters on here are talking about teenagers. Not many teen bullies are just misunderstood souls “being a dragon”. Many of them are nasty fuckers, enjoying asserting themselves over those they perceive to be weaker.

Don’t underestimate the impact that relentless bullying, day after day, can have on adolescents, and sadly schools can’t sort that out. They can’t be watching every corridor, pe changing room, lunch queue, playground etc at all times, never mind walking home from school etc. They can’t deal with every conflict through measures and calm discussion.

I do - yes. And yes, I am talking about younger children but I've heard the same advice being given to seven year olds.

I'm with your ex on this one. I was raised to turn the other cheek. Do you know what happened? They punched that one as well.

You seem to under an illusion that telling a teacher is going to work stopping the bullies they don't ( what do you do when a child comes to you to say that they are being bullied probably naff all) as schools don't do anything.

Also I was taught that if someone hit me I was to hit them back never throw the first punch but make sure you throw the last and only one I'm not violent ( teaching a child to stand up for them self don't make them violent)

Absolutely hit/push back. Most schools are poor at handling bullying IME.

I’ve just said this on the op’s other thread.

I let my son down.

I did it all the right way - reporting to the school, went through all their processes. And it was a waste of time.

The instant they were physically stood up to, the bullying stopped.

I failed my son. He suffered for a year for nothing.

All these ‘throw the last punch’ - finish the fight posters clearly don’t live in the real world. What happens when the bully then rounds up his mates after school. There are several anecdotal stories of that sorting the problem of course- bet there are loads of others where it didn’t

Also- Google one punch manslaughter.

Self- defence is fine- people have the right to defend themselves- in fact you have the right to throw the first punch if threatenec

Thanks all. I appreciate your comments. I won't be encouraging my son to hit back. His primary school is tiny and very good indeed at dealing with these issues so I'm going to email the HT.
I was bullied myself at the age of 13/14. So much so that I would eat my lunch in the loos as I didn't think I was worthy of having friends. My mum had a private chat with my tutor (who luckily was also great) and the problem resolved. I know this isn't always the case but I would never have hit back and as it was the bullying was mainly non-physical.
A very close friend of mine lost her brother when he was just 19. There was a pub fight and he fell on the floor following one of the punches and hit his head. His mum found him the next morning passed away in his bed. I'll never forget my other friend ringing me to tell me he'd died. Nobody was ever charged as it couldn't be proved whether the bleed on the brain was caused by a punch or the fall he had subsequently.

My DD was bullied at school because of the colour of her hair. She told the teachers what was going on. They told her to ignore the bullies and they would soon stop. The next time the bullies started on her DD turned and walked away as per the teachers advice. She was grabbed by the hair so hard she had a chunk of it missing. The bullies spat in her face and slapped her for daring to turn her back on them, still she was told to just walk away by the teachers. I told DD that the next time the bullies laid a hand on her she was to do what was necessary...she did and landed the ringleader on her arse in front of a crowd of her peers. That was the last time DD was ever bullied.

No harm to you, but what did you ask the question for?

You,already know what you’re doing/not doing.

Glummy if a teacher in your school doesn't see the violence happening, and 10 pupils say it didn't happen, but one pupil is adamant that it did but has no witnesses prepared to back them up, how do you deal with it? This is the problem that presents itself, because most of the time the bullied pupil ends up isolated - their friends are too scared to support them in case they end up bullied too, and the bully's friend aren't going to grass them up.

When my DS was bullied, the pastoral lead told me that the bully had a difficult home life and they were trying to be understanding, so sanctions wouldn't be fair. I knew the family and he did have a difficult home life - his dad was in prison for attempted murder, his brothers were in for armed robbery, and he was going the same way - but the refusal to tackle it in case it upset the poor little thug was what made me rethink the 'school will deal with it, look at how good their Ofsted record on bullying is' approach. All that means in practice is not recording complaints of bullying and the kids not speaking up to inspectors. They had a low Parent Voice response because many of the parents were disinterested in education and as long as the kids weren't at home they didn't engage with the school. The advice to not be a doormat is the only one possible in these circumstances.

All this advice along the lines of...

"Don’t start a fight, but by all means finish one."

"If someone hits you, hit back twice as hard."

...encourages tit-for-tat escalation which can lead to petty conflicts getting out of control.

Yes - the OP was asking about young kids - but if they develop this "tit-for-tat" "hit back harder" mindset then things can get out of control when they are older. Just search the news archives for the terms "tit-for-tat" and "stabbing" and you'll see how small things can escalate.

Where I work, any violence results in suspension or expulsion. We have amazing pastoral teams that look after all pupils welfare, all staff who the teach vulnerable children are briefed by these pastoral teams about their situation and everyone does everything in their power to stop bullying or existing issues escalating.

So funny. You live in some kind of utopie.
I was relentlessly bullied through primary school and two years of high school, because I was never taught how to fight back, and my mother thought good little girls did not react. I was told to ignore them, useless. The staff knew, they did nothing.

Thirty years later, it was my son's turn. Nothing had changed, though I did get a couple of the bullies to leave him alone, with a very hard stare. Others, nothing worked.

I think your ex is right too. I've certainly told my DD that if someone hits or pushes you on purpose, you hit them back. Bullies exist is all stages and areas of life, if they see weakness and an acceptance of their actions towards you, they will continue. I remember in first year secondary school a couple of girls, with a ring leader, picking on me during every tutor time. I told my tutor, nothing changed. After a couple of months I retaliated, the ring leader shoved me, and a fight broke out between us. I finished the fight. I was not picked on again during secondary school.

I tell my son to hit back too. And we will deal with it after. He does not have to stand there and take it. The thing with walking away is them looking like they are scared and sending the message that someone can do it again.

Where I work, any violence results in suspension or expulsion

Sounds great. I wish the school had applied that to the little fucker who kept attacking my son. Rather than leaving it to him to sort out himself. It won't happen again. Ds is now well schooled in how to protect himself.

Yes of course he is right.

My DS kept getting shoved by the same older boy back in year 2 so one day he’d just had enough and he got straight back up and shoved him back. The teachers didn’t tell DS off because it was self defence and I felt quite proud of him tbh, the older boy never bothered him again.

It can be dog eat dog in schools, sometimes you need to show that you’re not going to put up with shit in order to be left alone.

I’m not sure I agree with either of your approaches.

Kids are brutal and running to tell teacher is going to cause him many different issues to be honest. Nor do I think hitting back is the right answer.

Showing resilience, being able to use his words. And walk away is the best way. But it’s a bloody hard thing to teach.

Showing resilience, being able to use his words. And walk away is the best way. But it’s a bloody hard thing to teach.

As an adult. Not as a child trapped in a school environment, desperately miserable because the bullying doesn't stop, and the adults are not doing something about it. This is not the way to build up bloody resilience. But it does build up low self esteem, self harm and so on. In the adult world an individual has an opportunity to do something about bullying. At school, a child is trapped.

Ideally you never want your DC to get into any physical altercations at school, however, we don’t live in an ideal world. Your ex is right, if someone bullies your kid, they must defend themselves. In my experience bullies are usually cowards and will realise your kid is not the one to fuck with. Why allow your son to live in terror for years and have it emotionally affect his adulthood?

If a child hits mine I would tell them to not retaliate the first time, tell teacher first. If this proves ineffective the next time they get hit, hit back fucking hard and I will 100% have their back.