To be concerned re this advice?

[Nicknamegoeshere]

My ex-husband told my ten year-old son over the phone tonight that if someone pushes him or hits him at playtime, he should push or hit back in "self-defence."

I'm personally quite horrified at this advice. Son says he knows it's wrong.

Advice please!

I raised my DD to resolve conflict in a non-confrontational / non-physical way.

Unfortunately, when push came to shove, she had to defend herself. I fully supported her decision to hit back, harder, on the boy who thought it was amusing to pick on / push a girl around physically. It was all a big joke to him and his 'gang' of friends.

A well positioned kick in the shin with the hard toe of her boot ended something that should never have been allowed in a school play ground in the first place. She is a slip of a thing, tiny frame - he was not. This was in year 5. All his friends laughed at him as he fell to the ground holding his shin. They stopped taunting her, he never bothered her again.

I fully support self defense

I was bullied by a couple of older boys in secondary school because I advised my friend to dump one of them so they turned on me. I was smaller and female. This went on for a few weeks where they would follow me around in and outside of school calling me names etc. One day I flipped and they received a tirade of abuse involving words they had never heard plus credible threats of violence from relatives. It ended that day. They were not going to make my school years hell.

Jesus, this is the most depressing thread I have read in ages. No wonder bullying is so rife with all the parents encouraging their dc to be violent!

My dc know that they only use force to get away, and then they get help from an adult. I am beyond shocked that people are encouraging a child to hurt another child.

@Stompythedinosaur

Jesus, this is the most depressing thread I have read in ages. No wonder bullying is so rife with all the parents encouraging their dc to be violent!

My dc know that they only use force to get away, and then they get help from an adult. I am beyond shocked that people are encouraging a child to hurt another child.

I find the discussion interesting because it shows that what works on an individual level can have negative consequences at a societal level. I’ve no doubt that in some cases, hitting back can stop the violence against your specific child and dissuade their bully from attacking them again. That’s all parents think about. Your specific case right now.

But on a societal level, this piece of advice is probably being dispensed to millions of young children every year (and polls like this repeatedly show that the vast majority of patents tell their children to hit back). So there is scope for things to go wrong in how that advice is delivered to children (if accompanied with other things “don’t be a doormat”) and how they interpret and implement it. There is so much scope for things to wrong. I’ve no doubt that this attitude has the collective effort of a normalising violence among young children.

What all of these and-he-never-came-near-us-again narratives lack is any sense of how the story continued for the bully, who in all likelihood just found a new victim. All you are really saying is that you don't give a stuff about any other victims as long as your child isn't one of them. The bully learns nothing from the encounter, rather the reverse.

So bullied children should put up with it so someone else doesn't have to? What utter bollocks. It's not the victim's responsibility to stop the bully picking on anyone else. It's the responsibility of the school and the parents to stop them picking on anyone. And if they can't do that, then the police and social services have to get involved.

I haven't personally taught my kids to hit back, but haven't ruled it out if DS2 gets bullied when he's older. DS1 was bullied a few years ago, but he doesn't have an aggressive bone in his body and couldn't bring himself to hit anyone, so there was really no point telling him to. I spent a lot of time in the head's office while that was going on! Took almost a year, but they did eventually put a stop to the bullying.

The assumption is the bully hits your child just the once? Really? Do you think that’s how it plays out? They hit your child, your child is ok and is able to just casually walk over to the convenient adult positioned nearby ( with their handy witness who of course wishes to be involved). More likely that there’s a volley of blows or kicks with a group of hangers on goading them further. Please feel free to teach your child your wonderful non violent resistance techniques but my DD will know how to defend herself as is her right under law.

@Bluntness100

I’m not sure I agree with either of your approaches.

Kids are brutal and running to tell teacher is going to cause him many different issues to be honest. Nor do I think hitting back is the right answer.

Showing resilience, being able to use his words. And walk away is the best way. But it’s a bloody hard thing to teach.

@Bluntness100 I very rarely agree with you about anything but on this I think you are spot on.

I find the discussion interesting because it shows that what works on an individual level can have negative consequences at a societal level

It is interesting, but at the base level, comments like this:

What all of these and-he-never-came-near-us-again narratives lack is any sense of how the story continued for the bully, who in all likelihood just found a new victim

are just victim blaming. Since we're talking about children dealing with violence the same way as adults do, let's consider whether we'd EVER tell an adult not to defend themselves when attacked because it doesn't change the fact that the attacker will probably just attack someone else in the future. No shit we have to tackle bullying at the root cause, but victims are still entitled to defend and protect themselves.

Jesus, this is the most depressing thread I have read in ages. No wonder bullying is so rife with all the parents encouraging their dc to be violent!

What about the instigators? Are you depressed that apparently they aren't being given the pacifist upbringing?

Trump was mentioned above: there are several things that have made him the way he is, but certainly if people had been able to stand up to him before he wouldn't be a bully grabbing women by the pussy now, would he? Maybe if a couple of those women had boxed him on the nose?

Some things we do as children aren't acceptable when we do them as teenagers or adults. Defending yourself is never wrong. Instigating violence or bullying always is.

Frankly we have a lot of problems with workplace bullying because other people don't stand up and tell the bully to stop, just as they didn't school. THAT is what we should be teaching: everyone else should help out by putting a stop to it.

My dc know that they only use force to get away, and then they get help from an adult. I am beyond shocked that people are encouraging a child to hurt another child.

I wouldn't encourage my children to hurt another child, and yes if they can get away and get help from an adult, that’s great and obviously would be my first option for them but if they can’t, or there’s no adult to help them they have my blessing to stand up for themselves and hit back. The alternative is that they take a beating. My children aren’t violent, would never start a fight but they need to know it’s ok to defend themselves.

I'm with your ex too!
What would you do if you were attacked, just take it? Of course not!
If your child is attacked, they have every right to defend themselves

Agree with your ex.

@mintich

I'm with your ex too! What would you do if you were attacked, just take it? Of course not! If your child is attacked, they have every right to defend themselves

To answer your question: there are absolutely moments where as an adult, if attacked, I would remove myself from the situation immediately and contact the authorities. How do you know they don’t have a weapon at hand? How do you know you can always physically end every battle? And a prolonged altercation may well see you get arrested.

I sympathise with the idea that children, in the school context, can’t do that. But the idea that as an adult, your only option is to ‘take it’ or retaliate is just so misguided.

I'm a mother of a child who has suffered terribly from bullying. And I mean a group of kids going after him on a daily basis -verbally and physically. Once the school had acknowledged the problem and stopped blaming him for being a bit different it had gone on so long that they were helpless to change it.

I am still absolutely of the don't hit back opinion. And I mean never.

For those of you who say hit back twice as hard - not easy when you are a head smaller than the smallest child in the bullying group. Ds did try hitting back in the early days - it only made the problem worse and was dangerous for him being so small.

Ds does karate which has has taught him self defense - which has to do with blocking attacks and not hitting back as a reaction or show of being stronger.

He is in secondary school now and knows how to deal with problems and bullying (as does the school). He is turning out to be a very resilient and empathetic teenager. I don't believe that if we had condoned hitting back he would be doing as well as he is now.

Once again OP yanbu.

@Todayissunny I'm totally with you. There is a world of difference between "hitting back harder" and self-defense.

@Suzi888
What I suggest is that i am entitled to my opinion as are you.
And if you like it or not if my child came home from primary school and was being hit. I'd tell them to hit the bully twice as hard and make sure they do it hard enough so they don't do it again.

You cant allow a bully to get away with violence so you have to defend yourself simple.

@redolent that just makes me think it's never happened to you. You cant always get away

I'm with your ex, I always told mine to stick up for themselves and that they'd never be in trouble with me for doing so, which was in direct contrast to the primary schools rules of 'tell the teacher'

It's a lot more nuanced than 'always hit back' vs 'never retaliate'. Sometimes hitting back may be The best response. The problem is, kids really don't tend to get nuance. If you bring them up thinking they should always stick up for themselves with violence, always hit harder, always hit last etc, that's going to be first and foremost in their minds. You may even end up with a nasty little bully who thinks that thumping people is the best way to deal with any behaviour they don't like (reasonable or not).

My DS knows he can hit in self defense, or in defense of a friend. He also knows it's a last resort/emergency option, rather than the default.

@copperoliver yes I understood what you said I said off the back of that, what if they can’t hit them back. What if the other dude is massive? What if there are loads of them.
What do you suggest to then? That’s a legit question? Isn’t it.

@Pinkyxx that is proportionate self defence- beautifully handled by your dd

[quote mintich]@redolent that just makes me think it's never happened to you. You cant always get away [/quote]
I have been assaulted in public (I’m visibly of a certain religion) and yes, I got away immediately and reported it. I had no intention of endangering myself further by taking on my two attackers.

This thread is shocking......these are children we are talking about. No wonder we have such a violent and selfish society if these are the messages parents are giving their children.......🙈🙈

I can’t believe all these parents are teaching their kids to stand there and be victims. It’s bad enough when you can’t fight back, let alone having the shit kicked out of you when you can but have been told not to. Poor kids.