To want to know if the Republicans have any grounds to suspect fraud

[DynamoKev]

Not a fan of either Trump or Biden.

Due to Trump's pathetic behaviour it is easy to dismiss his claims.

But some claims (if true) seem to be worthy of investigation.

@Quartz2208

If any election was rigged it was the 2000 one in which

Bush won 271 to 266
He lost the electoral vote
He won in Florida by 547 votes in a state where his brother was Governor

There you can easily see how the other side could have won.

It is a weird quirk of the system that a losing side can have more votes than the winning side - but it usually is a losing Democrat and winning Republican. In this instance it hasnt even happened.

There is likely to be some miscounting etc found but that is true in all cases. The sheer number of votes he would need across a number of states (who geographically are at opposite ends of the country) would need a conspiracy on a level not seen before.

This isnt one state - it isnt Florida 2000. It is a huge number.

Donald Trump is clearly doing it this way because his supporters will demand he sees it through - his Party dont want this they are slowly moving away from him but his actions make it difficult. If he wanted to run in 2024 he is clearly forgetting that is the GOP that decides the nomination not his supporters

This is why it’s so important to audit those votes in the ‘blue wall’ states (Georgia is going to be automatically recounted but they really need an audit as well).

Bush perhaps was not the winner in 2000. That means we could have avoided all the misery of Iraq/Afghanistan.

You’ll also note that the two states most in question that year, Ohio and Florida, were uncomplicated this year because they had their shit together and understood the consequences because of past experience.

@Ihaveyourback

I think what I can see on this thread are some very worried posts that sense that something was indeed amiss with the elections, and if it is uncovered it could remove the prospect of Mr Biden actually winning.

They don't seem to realise the deep harm that would be caused to American democracy if the legal proceedings do not take place, seemingly no idea of the risk of serious and sustained rioting, unrest and violence as half the nation lose their trust in the democratic processes and legal framework. It unleashes all kinds of truly frightening consequences.

We need to remain calm, allow the legal investigations to do its work, and shown some confidence in the system. If Mr Biden did indeed win the election fairly, we will soon see that result.

Mr Biden and his team should welcome the opportunity of proving the election was clean and fair.

No I disagree it is likely that Trump himself will stir up discord.

Financial gain probably part of it.

This is more sensible

A team of international observers invited by the Trump administration has issued a preliminary report giving high marks to the conduct of last week’s elections--and it criticizes President Trump for making baseless allegations that the outcome resulted from systematic fraud.”

@Ihaveyourback well written but so deceptive. “Mr Biden now needs to graciously accept that the proceedings must take place, in order for the integrity of the elections to remain in tact. Absolute gaslighting. There is not a shred of credible evidence for wide-scale voter fraud. To the tune of hundreds of thousands. Not a shred of evidence. They complained about not being able to observe, but had to admit in court they were in fact there (also visible on camera). There is only one person who singlehandedly is destroying faith in democracy in the US and that is Trump. He set the stage for this a long time ago. And do tell me why he is accepting the validity of votes for the Senate cast ON THE SAME ballots? If you want to talk about suppression of democracy in the US the thing to watch is how they are cleansing the electoral rolls of black and minority voters and redistricting to primarily benefit Republicans. Funny that you hear nothing about that from Trump. Joe Biden has been more than gracious. He won the election. There is only one person who needs to be gracious here but he hasn’t managed that in his entire life.

We need to remain calm

There is only one person out of the two presidential candidates who has already been on TV multiple times making speeches calling for calm. And it's not Trump. And there's only been one person encouraging half the nation, via twitter, to be suspicious of the democratic process. And it's not Biden!

I haven't seen anywhere Biden or any of his team saying that legal challenges should stop or shouldn't be brought in the first place. But he has to get on with the transition. If the Trump campaign had any evidence, they would be shouting it from the rooftops by now so the logical inference is that he doesn't have much, if any, what he does have is not enough to change the outcome of the election overall.

[quote MarionberryJam]A private party filed a lawsuit in Michigan yesterday regarding election fraud that describes in detail many of the same incidents and evidence President Trump has. You can read a copy of their complaint and get a good idea of what evidence President Trump probably also has here:

townsquare.media/site/656/files/2020/11/election-crimes-lawsuit.pdf[/quote]
You know what that reads like. Threads on here in AIBU, were a poster is retelling a story about some sort of altercation they have had. In their posts the go to great pains to express just how reasonable they are and unreasonable the other person was.

Things like:
"... Person A screamed and shouted and flailed their arms at me so apocalyptic they were bright red and sweating and tearing at their sweatshop-made hoodie. I replied incredily politely and calmly without even looking annoyed and all while calming stroking a purring kitten, songbirds singing around me and butterflies rested on my (home-crafted) dress..."

Hearsay, not evidence.

This year following the murder of G Floyd I saw many scenes of burning and looting with words such as 'peaceful' to describe the events (by reports from MSM). I went to youtube and found loads of footage from people that were there, showing people being hurt and small businessesdestroyed, nothing peaceful about it. I lost a bit of trust in the so call MSM since. Same goes from the situation re: coronavirus in the developing country my ILs live. If you read the guardian and mumsnet is all about PILES of bodies everywhere. I read the local newspapers and talk to friends and in-laws and nobody have seen a single body, never mind PILES of them. 2020, the year I got really fed up with MSM. So I'll just wait and see what happens with the US election.

And do tell me why he is accepting the validity of votes for the Senate cast ON THE SAME ballots?

There were a lot of votes that only marked the presidential race. This is significant and may be a big factor why down ballots were a virtual red wave.

That amount is usually pretty small in any presidential election year, but this year there are reportedly a lot more ballots with just the top race marked.

this year there are reportedly a lot more ballots with just the top race marked

Reportedly? Can you link where this has been reported? I can't find this number anywhere - not only for this year, but more generally the proportion that only have a presidential vote and nothing down-ticket. I can find data on straight ticket voting for past years, but not yet for this year - in my state the ballot has a box to check for a straight ticket, which is not the same as just voting for president and no down-ticket races.

I would find it amusing if the legal investigations proved that Fraud was indeed rife, within the Trump campaign, and which led to Biden gaining a much higher percentage of the vote. .

Only one person publicly encouraged his voters to vote fraudulently, i.e. vote by mail and in person, and that person was Donald Trump.

And I think that even if it ended up with the republicans being named as the winners after all (although I don’t actually believe that will happen,) Trumps conduct and behaviour has been such over the past few days that the cabinet would enact the 25th amendment and would remove him from power anyway. No-one in their right mind wants him in power any more. Not even his own party.

[quote Timshortforthalia]@sst1234

Here's how I vote in the uk: I turn up, I tell them my name. They let me in. No id required, never even been asked to even give my address. How is that system any less open to fraud than the intricate, crossed checked systems being run in the us this year (oh yeah, and many years before this, which everyone has somehow forgotten)[/quote]
I think it's ridiculous that we don't have to prove who we are when voting in the UK. I think you should have to present your polling card or be prepared to show other ID.

But.

Surely you do have to give your address as that's how the register is organised? At my local polling station there are 3 or 4 desks arranged alphabetically by street e.g. Acacia Avenue to Hyacinth Gardens, you go to the desk for your street, give your address and then they check your name before they score you off.

I can't find this number anywhere - not only for this year, but more generally the proportion that only have a presidential vote and nothing down-ticket

Sydney Powell talked about this on Maria Bartiromo’s Fox show. I too would like to know the percentages in other states during the 2020 election specifically in demographically similar states like Minnesota and Ohio, as you could make a better comparison.

Also, traditionally, when you leave something on the ballot blank (undervoting), it’s the presidential race (this is actually how Trump won Wisconsin and Michigan in 2016). To leave everything but the top spot blank is more unusual, as the ballots contain a lot of local issues having to do with taxation and city/town funding and the like. Stuff that actually affects people on a day-to-day basis.

The evidence will be prepared and given to the courts in the coming days. In that time, the media that have called this election a victory far too early - will now need to cover the legal proceedings.

Except that's not happening. The cases that have gone to court and the ones that are being prepared have the common factor of no actual evidence being presented. Only hearsay. Which is why the ones that have been in front of a court have been rejected, and those yet to go to court will be as well.

You're being tricked.

The problem is that at this point any Trump supporter won't trust the results unless trump wins. If there are credible claims and evidence they absolutely must be investigated. If the courts decide that there isn't enough evidence then there will be cries of corrupt courts. I can't see this ending well for the GOP, the staunchest trump supporters already think that high level GOP politicians and officials are colluding in the alleged fraud. Source: breitbart comments section.

You can see how Trump’s plan has been laid out.

1. Cast doubts about mail in voting before the election
2. ensure that votes from mail ins aren’t allowed to be counted until AFTER in person Election Day votes are counted in key states
3. claim victory when he had an apparent early lead in such states, even though this had been discussed at length before hand as a “red mirage”
4. try to stop mail in ballots being counted
5. lawsuits and confusion and chaos

It fell down at 4) because people counting did not stop but also because Biden was doing well enough in the majority of those those key states: if votes were stopped Trump still would have lost.

But if everything was much closer it could well have been a genuine shit show.

Now they’re just left with legal challengers talking of “non zero” numbers of observers and press conferences next to a porn shop and opposite a crematorium.

If the Presidential election was fraudulent and rigged

then so were the Senate
so were Congress
so were the Governors
so were the State legislatures
so were the town mayors
so were the ballot initiatives
because they are ALL ON THE SAME PIECE OF PAPER

But its funny that only part of the page is wrong when the rest of the page is right

@Quartz2208

I don't know what to think until we can see what they have to back up their claims, like photos or documents, and I also want to see the state's response/explanations. It's a lot to process. I just posted for informational purposes, because I was still reading it and had the tab open. I should have been more clearer. My only opinion right now is that we have been hearing charges of voter fraud every election for a long time and it would be good to have it proven one way or another finally.

cochineal7 If that is true, and there is 'not a shred' of evidence, then this will be the shortest and easiest court case in history!
It will be thrown out, the court's conclusion will be final and Mr Biden will become president, and take much of the republican support with him. Surely that is the most desirable outcome.

If Mr Trump is simply just creating mirage, chaos and misinformation as you say, the one moment when all that stops is in the courts, when the Judges take a very detailed, forensic look at the evidence and facts produced, and the matter is put to rest in the courts. It is the only way.

I can not understand why anyone can possibly argue against the issue being elevated to the courts. It is clearly the only way forward.

Of course it would have been easier if Mr Trump had just conceded immediately, regardless of the fears and evidence of rigging - and Mr Biden just rides into power effortlessly - but with such a close run election, with such tight margins - and the largest postal vote in US history. That my friend, was never going to happen.

The only way out of this would have been a landslide by either party, and that certainly didn't happen.

The fact that the media called it a victory, and the recounts are still not completed even now, that is a shameful and quite frankly harmful action. One wonders how the 'free and fair' media will be viewed worldwide after that?

Mr Biden now needs to be smart, and accept the legal proceedings are a good thing for both him and the country as a whole, because this is the only way he can bring the nation together, and to take the other half of the nation with him for the next four years. It really is as simple as that.

.

@MarionberryJam also voter suppression needs to be addressed.

While it may be based on the websites I tend to frequent, the only actual specific claims I have seen (i.e. X happened to my personal ballot paper) come from young adults living at home whose Trumper parents have taken their vote and sent it in for Trump. When you add in what Trump did to the postal service, and the suggestion from him that voters should vote by mail and in person, I think it’s clear someone was trying to rig the election. It’s just that Mr. Trump operated with his usual competence and skill (/s) and screwed it up.

Ihaveyourback
The fact that the media called it a victory, and the recounts are still not completed even now, that is a shameful and quite frankly harmful action. One wonders how the 'free and fair' media will be viewed worldwide after that?
You do realise that the US election has been called before counting is complete every time for the last 40 years ....

Counting is NEVER complete until the end of November
a failing of democracy due to GOP meddling, but not the issue here
Trump was quite happy when the media called in 2016 long before counting was over.
Why should he not accept the same thing now?

By the way, just for the record, I do think it is possible there has been widespread fraud. I do think it is likely it will come to light. Not because I am a closet Trump fan, I am most definitely not!

I might also add I think there has been voting fraud for years and years in the US, and nothing has been done to address the security of voting by any party, it has been ignored and now there are serious consequences. The issue this time really is the record postal vote. It is a problem I have to say.

One would hope that after this whatever happens, the voting security will become paramount to future elections, so the elections remain fair, and can be trusted.

I happen to think the UK can learn a lot from this too. I have never had to show ID to vote, and anyone could drop in at 9.55pm and vote in my name. I would argue that we will find ourselves in a similar situation in the near future if we don't learn something from our friends in the US.

@MarionberryJam I think at some level voter fraud occurs in every election - people try to vote twice, use a deceased person vote, vote for someone else. Then undoubtedly there is a certain amount of error in play due to mistakes.

The 2000 election was looked at because of the margins involved. With those numbers it could have gone either way. The margins are actually quite high in a number of states. The conspiracy (if it has occured) would be wide spread and fairly high up to get the numbers needed.

The GOP really needs to look now at how best to approach this and I think it should distance itself from Trump and support Biden for the good of the country

listening The margins were completely different in 2016 as you well know!

@Ihaveyourback

If that is true, and there is 'not a shred' of evidence, then this will be the shortest and easiest court case in history!
It will be thrown out, the court's conclusion will be final and Mr Biden will become president, and take much of the republican support with him. Surely that is the most desirable outcome.
This is exactly what has happened 10 times already! Trump has taken 10 completely stupid cases to court which have been laughed out immediately. He's clearly throwing spaghetti at the wall to see what sticks, but has no real proof of anything. He can drag it out for as long as he likes (or can afford to), but the longer he does this, the more damage he is doing to democracy as his brainswashed cult members lose the ability to tell fact from fiction.

The fact that the media called it a victory, and the recounts are still not completed even now, that is a shameful and quite frankly harmful action. One wonders how the 'free and fair' media will be viewed worldwide after that?
The media has called every election in the same way - once it's mathematically impossible for a candidate to catch up, they call it. Occasionally recounts happen but there's no conspiracy here. If anything the media waited too long this time. The race is not even that close.

Mr Biden now needs to be smart, and accept the legal proceedings are a good thing for both him and the country as a whole, because this is the only way he can bring the nation together, and to take the other half of the nation with him for the next four years. It really is as simple as that.
This is exactly what Biden is doing - he has made no criticism or comment at all on the cases. Anyway, do you seriously think that after all the misinformation being spewed out by Trump and his gang, Biden is going to stand a chance of 'bringing the nation' together? No matter what happens in the courts now, his cult will refuse to accept the truth. No level of 'proof' will ever be enough for them now.