To want to know if the Republicans have any grounds to suspect fraud

[DynamoKev]

Not a fan of either Trump or Biden.

Due to Trump's pathetic behaviour it is easy to dismiss his claims.

But some claims (if true) seem to be worthy of investigation.

You're incredibly naive about the power that Trump has with a growing section of American society completely agree.

Already 70% of his voters believe these fraud allegations that aren’t backed up by any evidence. Many are armed to the teeth. He has the AG in his pocket, along with much of the SC. He’s also switched out lots of key defence staff in recent days.

So your call to give it time and let the process play out is foolish and naive, and it is important imo to call him out for what he is.

A very powerful and dangerous liar and cheat. This has the potential to get very bad very quickly, and sitting on your hands is simply playing into his (tiny) hands.

You're incredibly naive about the power that Trump has with a growing section of American society

And why is there that support? He is speaking to some part of American society that feels unheard/ignored? Even reading through the posts on this thread I have been shocked by the use of language aimed at the Republicans. That is no way to bring in the disaffected masses is it. Or do you expect them to vote for people that calls them cultists/savages and racists?

I can't help but feel for these people, they are made to feel inferior, they are made to feel their voices do not count - no one is standing in their corner and much of the section of society behind the Democrats openly despises them. Trump has stepped into their corner as far as I can see, or that is certainly the impression he gives them.

If you want to start looking at the reason for such a strong turn out for Trump this time, surely you might want to start there.

The worry is that the gulf and the extreme feelings either side will widen to such a degree it will cause a permanent and significant rupture. The fight for America's soul almost seems like a hollywood movie, it seems to me to be a very good description of what is happening now.

None of which I disagree with. My abuse is reserved for the leaders, not the voters. But Trump is not leading, he is using. He is stoking. He has the power to make the situation better but he makes it worse, for his own ends. His words and actions are an attack on democracy, and he has been doing this throughout his Presidency. Your naivety comes from the idea that there is any legal process that will convince conspiracy theorists that the election was fair; only Trump and his colleagues can do that, and they won't. Your posts on here endorse the work that they are doing to undermine the actual fair and open processes of government.

lonely I don't think you have much choice but to wait and allow the investigations to take place. You might not like or agree with it, but he is entitled to do what is he doing. Period.

What is really concerning most I would imagine, is that they DO find something significant, and may have done already. The idea that the voting system does not have major flaws and ones that can be used is naive.

Even Donald Trump once all legal routes have been exhausted will leave, if that is what happens. No one has the right to stay in office because they choose to. I would very surprised it will come to a removal. He will try and fight his corner, contest what he needs to and go on I guess to fight the next election if not successful.

Your naivety comes from the idea that there is any legal process that will convince conspiracy theorists that the election was fair; only Trump and his colleagues can do that, and they won't.

If Trump went on TV right now and conceded, there are those those would say it was a deepfake Those that would say he was making it under duress and it could be ignored, and those that would say it was an imposter and that the real Trump had been "bumped off".

By "They" (obviously).

Just look at the mental contortions needed to insist the Earth is flat.

Conspiracy theorists do not make up the majority of Americans, so I can't really work up any reason to care about them daily

Mr Trump is not forcing Democrats to insult people, they are doing that by themselves. The onus is on them to stop being hateful. You are seemingly supporting the abuse of half the country, and blaming them for being abused. It is not right.

You might not like Mr Trump's style, values or manners but he clearly appeals to a great many people. And there is good reason for that. Disenfranchised people will find an outlet eventually.

@DGRossetti

Your naivety comes from the idea that there is any legal process that will convince conspiracy theorists that the election was fair; only Trump and his colleagues can do that, and they won't.

If Trump went on TV right now and conceded, there are those those would say it was a deepfake Those that would say he was making it under duress and it could be ignored, and those that would say it was an imposter and that the real Trump had been "bumped off".

By "They" (obviously).

Just look at the mental contortions needed to insist the Earth is flat.

Yeah, there would be limitations. They've roused a lot of feeling. But it would be the best hope to damp down some of it.

You might not like Mr Trump's style, values or manners but he clearly appeals to a great many people.

Not enough to keep him president.

It's been a while since I dipped into the US nerd sites for the stats, but the general impression was that a lot of Republicans are still Republican, just not as keen on Trump. Which the US system allows for. The 2019 UK election might have been very different if people could have voted Labour, but not Corbyn ...

If you want to stop the Trumps of the world, you need to speak to people who have been lost along the way. You can't keep telling them they are stupid/wrong/imbeciles. If you are not very careful this election will only embolden the cause, and the long term prospects for the country will not be with the Democrats or anything like them.

Fundamental changes need to take place.

@Ihaveyourback There have been multiple studies into voter fraud which show that it affects something like 0.05% of votes. Even Trump's own inquiry into it in 2017 was abandoned because there was no evidence of anything. Yes there will always be a few that fall through the cracks, but the system is actually pretty robust and we are not talking margins of 0.05% in this election. A calculation has historically been made that the 0.05% is not worth dragging elections through the court and making people doubt their integrity.

The issue here is that it's being done 'backwards' if you like - Trump decided that the election was rigged because he lost, for no other reason, and is now trying to find evidence to back up that claim. If you can't see the problem with that, then you are being wilfully blind.

I make no apologies for calling a proportion of Trump voters cultists. I'm sure a great many are just ordinary people who feel they are better off financially under Trump and are willing to overlook his racism, authoritarianism etc for that. But you don't have to look far online to see that a large (and growing) number of his supporters are very much in a cult. Just read up on QAnon. That number is only going to grow as this process drags on.

Well good luck folks, I am sure at some point soon things will become clearer one way or another.

I did note you did not appear to acknowledge my comments about the hateful bile aimed at Republicans (half of the US) so I can infer that you don't wish to talk about something so close to the truth.

Treat people with respect, even if they don't agree with you

Was it Ben Franklin The price of liberty is eternal vigilance ?

Maybe Trump is what you get when you stop being vigilant.

Speaking of the good Founding Father, it remains to be seen whether the US constitution has worked to protect the people from tyranny, or not. (In as much as it ever has ...)

Conspiracy theorists do not make up the majority of Americans, so I can't really work up any reason to care about them

And that's a dangerous way to think.

Disenfranchised people will find an outlet eventually.

Indeed. And the Democrats and the mainstream Republicans haven't connected with them - that's a major issue for the US. Trump isn't looking to help them, he's looking to exploit them. And the outlet he is encouraging them towards is civil unrest - for someone so keen to see due process, you seem utterly unbothered about that, and the ramifications worldwide.

Of course, you're not concerned about the hundreds of thousands of people who have been literally disenfranchised by voter suppression, as that doesn't fit your narrative.

Treat people with respect, even if they don't agree with you

respect is earned.

3 And your closed mind, and others like you will be one of the many reasons why this is likely to end in badly. Perhaps very badly. Even now you are desperate to call them names, when you and I both know there are millions of ordinary Americans that are conservative and he speaks to their values. Nothing to do with QA and certainly nothing to do with a cult! But you keep banging that out endlessly even if it is blatant lie.

If you are American, unless you can stop the hate, you are condemned to more of the same indefinitely.

Trump does speak to a lot of people. And a spectrum so some more extreme.

But he also stirs and provokes effectively, so when he is gone from his position a lot of this effect will dissipate.

@Ihaveyourback Read my post again.

If you are American, unless you can stop the hate, you are condemned to more of the same indefinitely.

Interesting words from someone who admittedly is not American and has, in theory, no stake in this fight.

The view from the ground is far more dire than you theorise.

@MarshaBradyo

Will it, though? Because even though (most of) the flags are gone, I can still remember who in my neighbourhood flew the "Trump 2020: Fuck Your Feelings" banners.

And I live in a staunchly Democrat-leaning state.

Interesting words from someone who admittedly is not American and has, in theory, no stake in this fight.

For better. For worse. The whole world has a stake in this fight.

One thing I will remember Trump for, is possibly the only US president to not send troops into a war somewhere. Unless I missed something ?

[quote gwenneh]@MarshaBradyo

Will it, though? Because even though (most of) the flags are gone, I can still remember who in my neighbourhood flew the "Trump 2020: Fuck Your Feelings" banners.

And I live in a staunchly Democrat-leaning state.[/quote]
True not sure by how much. He’ll still have Twitter feed and stir trouble but at least he won’t have legitimacy of WH, tg, and the ability to make big decisions globally.

He’ll still have Twitter feed

Unlikely for long once he's a private citizen.

In fact, the single biggest thread he faces as a result of losing is the loss of Twitter.

@DGRossetti

He’ll still have Twitter feed

Unlikely for long once he's a private citizen.

In fact, the single biggest thread he faces as a result of losing is the loss of Twitter.

I have mused on this. How simple it is to turn it off for him and make it go away.

Trump may well end up with his own TV channel, making Fox look like Socialism Today. Fox prime time has the highest rating of any channel in the States.

How simple it is to turn it off for him and make it go away.

Depends. I am encouraged by the fact that Steve Bannon is off Twitter, after they deemed his tweets too offensive for any other sanction.

Will a private citizen Trump be able to contain himself ? Only time will tell.