To want to know if the Republicans have any grounds to suspect fraud

[DynamoKev]

Not a fan of either Trump or Biden.

Due to Trump's pathetic behaviour it is easy to dismiss his claims.

But some claims (if true) seem to be worthy of investigation.

@Ihaveyourback

You said it, not me.

I was going to ignore this. But it is an interesting example of what we see in so many Trump supporters - they can get so incredibly worked up about small issues/problems with his opponents, thinking they demonstrate that the person is evil/completely incompetent/corrupt/whatever, while completely ignoring significantly worse behaviour/traits in Trump and his cronies.

I'd have thought the cognitive dissonance would be horrendous.

Also, sarcasm and humour don't really come through for him and his followers either. Also seen here. Fascinating.

With thanks to @MrsMorton in the main Trump thread...

twitter.com/marceelias/status/1326345253360635904?s=21

a) The lawyers representing Trump agree that there was no actual fraud
b) The Counties that they are using to push this narrative all voted Trump - thus, if they were successful, this would invalidate TRUMPS vote, not Bidens
c) The degree of win by Biden, means that they would have to find fraud in something like 150K (ish?) of votes in one State. Arguing about the provenance of 500 odd votes is not going to work...

I was about to say, "you could not make this up"... and yet, they have....

Come on then @Ihaveyourback money where your mouth is.

List the cases that have been/are being brought to court and the results so far. Hint - 10 out of 10 so far: lost.

You may be able delude yourself and others on other SM sites, but MN are a heap more educated and informed than most.

I think Trump is hoping to get this to the Supreme Court, where three of the Justices were appointed by him and so will find in his favour. If that's what he's hoping, he'll be sadly disappointed, as the Justices are appointed for life and have made an oath to uphold the law 'without fear or favour', and will throw his claims out of court.

I don't even think the court cases are the focus any more. They're just providing the narrative, casting doubt over the whole election and riling up his base. Plus making him some money - he's grifting for donations from supporters to fund the legal efforts and in the small print it says half of all money received will go towards paying off his campaign debt!

The real story is elsewhere now that other senior Republicans are involved. I don't know exactly what they have planned but it's something nasty.

lonely let me be clear. I don't care who wins.
I am English, and it is not my business to decide who runs the states for the next four years! If I could choose personally I would go with Mr Biden probably. I am simply pointing out on here that things are not as they seem. The volume of posts just assuming it is all over and the Democrats have won, I feel are misguided and premature, thats it. The Trump team are perfectly within their rights to contest if they want to, and that process should happen. If you want the elections to remain trusted and fair, you have to follow the legal framework and processes. Whether Mr Trump is lying or has a good case we are yet to find out, let the court do its work - hold off on claiming victory until there is a clear conclusion to this.

Perhaps the time to get upset is if the courts conclude Trump has a good case, I can't see the point in being so animated and upset before then. You will just have to wait.

Whether Mr Trump is lying or has a good case we are yet to find out, let the court do its work - hold off on claiming victory until there is a clear conclusion to this.

You keep referring to “the court” and “the hearing”. What court and what hearing? Link please.

The NYT has called the election officials in all 50 states to ask about voting irregularities. Many of those have Republican governors, secs of state, state legislatures in Republican control.

www.nytimes.com/2020/11/10/us/politics/voting-fraud.html

@Ihaveyourback I'll keep asking (even though I'm well aware that you are trolling, I'm still curious as to your answer) - when will you consider that there is a 'clear conclusion'? So far 13 cases have gone to court and been thrown out. What's your threshold? 15? 20? 100?

List them! List them! List them!

The mentality of Trump is that he is treating the electorate as if it's a business deal - never give in, find points of weakness and aggressively go after them, discredit your opponent.

He does not understand the Constitution and how it applies to him, at best, and at worst he is criminally insane/narcissist.

But the Biden transition team are experienced and were ready for Trump to dig his heels in, and said they weren't worried, as they were, 'used to dealing with trespassers in the White House...'

let me be clear. I don't care who wins nope, sorry I think you’re lying there.

You’re trying to give the impression there’s some sort of credible case when pretty much the entire world thinks otherwise. And you’re doing that because you want to create an air of legitimacy. Trump needs people to prop up that image online and you’re doing a great job!

Just no one on here is falling for it.

@Ihaveyourback

lonely let me be clear. I don't care who wins. I am English, and it is not my business to decide who runs the states for the next four years! If I could choose personally I would go with Mr Biden probably. I am simply pointing out on here that things are not as they seem. The volume of posts just assuming it is all over and the Democrats have won, I feel are misguided and premature, thats it. The Trump team are perfectly within their rights to contest if they want to, and that process should happen. If you want the elections to remain trusted and fair, you have to follow the legal framework and processes. Whether Mr Trump is lying or has a good case we are yet to find out, let the court do its work - hold off on claiming victory until there is a clear conclusion to this.

Perhaps the time to get upset is if the courts conclude Trump has a good case, I can't see the point in being so animated and upset before then. You will just have to wait.

I think you're being naive if you think this is about ensuring elections are seen as remaining trusted and fair. It's the exact opposite. And no matter how many court cases there are Trump and his supporters are not going to accept the result. They've lost 10 out of 10 so far. This is about delegitimising the election to republican supporters. 70% now believe it was corruption and I don't think any court case will change their minds because they certainly won't change Trump's. They believed it with no evidence and so how could a court case change their minds?

And also this is about raising some funds for Trump (half the money raised from supporters through donations to these court cases goes to paying off campaign debt).

@Ihaveyourback

lonely let me be clear. I don't care who wins. I am English, and it is not my business to decide who runs the states for the next four years! If I could choose personally I would go with Mr Biden probably. I am simply pointing out on here that things are not as they seem. The volume of posts just assuming it is all over and the Democrats have won, I feel are misguided and premature, thats it. The Trump team are perfectly within their rights to contest if they want to, and that process should happen. If you want the elections to remain trusted and fair, you have to follow the legal framework and processes. Whether Mr Trump is lying or has a good case we are yet to find out, let the court do its work - hold off on claiming victory until there is a clear conclusion to this.

Perhaps the time to get upset is if the courts conclude Trump has a good case, I can't see the point in being so animated and upset before then. You will just have to wait.

But you're boxing with shadows. Court hearings have happened and are happening. No one is trying to stop them. Biden is not trying to stop them. None of them will reach the Supreme Court because they're not proceedable. None of the media claims are being substantiating in court.

Even if every single claim of fraud was upheld, it wouldn't change the election result. Biden is winning by bigger margins and in too many states to overturn it.

Biden has been calm and measured. It's not in anyone's interest to stir up Democratic protest, not least because it would hand Trump an excuse to use civil contingencies powers inappropriately.

Even if Trump wants to wait for the outcome of every one of these court proceedings to take place before he concedes, his silence, absence and use of mouthpieces like Pompeo are a dereliction of duty; he is the one who is not following procedure.

Your posts are not factual. You are regurgitating the propaganda of the far right of the Republican Party.

One bit of good(ish) news I saw this morning is that 80% of all voters recently polled think that Biden is the winner of the election. Obviously that should be 100% in an ideal world.

@Namechangedforthisoct2

Agree, there definitely seems some fishy behaviour going on across the pond!

Ofgs

Here is the thing there has undoubtedly being voter fraud in this US election - that I think is fact and probably easy to prove.

But the numbers are very small and not always in favour of the Democrat party (indeed the examples so far seem to be for Trump)

That is it

Interesting - does voter fraud include voter suppression? If yes, then I agree - there has been LOTS of this.....

3 I can hear you are upset about this situation, it is evident in your posts. You can call me whatever you wish, but I am looking at the outcome slightly differently to you - and as you said yesterday in The Hill the article published by Alan Dershowitz, professor emeritus at Harvard Law School later confirmed it is important to democracy that claims are heard, they are investigated - and taken seriously.

thehill.com/opinion/white-house/525118-can-president-trump-win-his-election-challenges-in-court

It is not about the politics for me. It is about learning the truth. I would be far more comfortable knowing that the next President is there because he has truly won, as would most people. Surely to remove the doubt as far as possible will benefit everyone.

You claim that Mr Trump is simply doing this because he is a bad loser and wants to create as much ill feeling as he can on the out, and you may be absolutely right in that assessment. Completely right.

You might also strongly argue that Mr Biden brings far more hope with him, he is keen on getting things done to address the climate issues, he is a supporter of Nato to keep us all safer, he is an advocate for a gentle and considered leadership that is eloquent and wise. I will tell you that I am greatly impressed with him, and although I worry about his strength when it comes to larger more hostile countries - I would welcome a return of diplomacy and respect. I think Mr Biden will make a fantastic President out of the two, and perhaps overall.

But only if the people have actually voted for him.

If the American people prefer the Trump vision, then that is a matter for them. It is not my place to persuade the American people with my vision and what is right for them. Of course they must know that what they choose has a bearing on the world, but not much more than that.

In terms of how many court cases Mr Trump should be able to file. Well again, let him carry on. It is not for an indefinite period - it has to end on the 8th of December. If there is nothing to prove and no evidence of any serious fraud as you say, this will amount to absolutely nothing - and Mr Biden will be sworn in.

What are you worried about? That the Trump team will dig something meaningful from nowhere?
Why are not more confident that Mr Biden has nothing to fear?

I might add that I read largely British broadsheets that are on the whole extremely supportive of Mr Biden and other sources that are of interest. I hardly feel I swallowed the bible of the Republican party!

If Mr Trump is creating doubt about the election to serve himself that will soon be painfully obvious to all. So let the processes happen. Let him have his moment, so we can see the evidence and if there is any creditable merit to them (or not) Refusing to allow the investigation and conclusion is a dangerous path, because for next election should the Republicans fight a very dirty war - you would hope there would be processes in place to protect the Democrats?

Stop strangling the framework that protects the entire voting system. Allow the facts to be heard, and be known. That way the system will have been tested (again) and will be ensure that democracy is remains trusted by all.

www.theguardian.com/us-news/2020/nov/10/us-postal-worker-recants-voter-fraud-claims-after-republicans-call-for-inquiry

A postal worker whose allegations of ballot tampering are the basis of Republican calls for investigations has reportedly recanted his story.

(contd)

^And also...I think we now have another piece of the puzzle - Trump is using his fundraising for his legal challenges to pay off his debts: www.wsj.com/livecoverage/trump-biden-election-day-2020/card/zU0rMlE7ltxzuW4lIwai^

Nigel Farage was in the US meeting Trump recently ....

@Ihaveyourback

I might add that I read largely British broadsheets that are on the whole extremely supportive of Mr Biden and other sources that are of interest. I hardly feel I swallowed the bible of the Republican party!

If Mr Trump is creating doubt about the election to serve himself that will soon be painfully obvious to all. So let the processes happen. Let him have his moment, so we can see the evidence and if there is any creditable merit to them (or not) Refusing to allow the investigation and conclusion is a dangerous path, because for next election should the Republicans fight a very dirty war - you would hope there would be processes in place to protect the Democrats?

Stop strangling the framework that protects the entire voting system. Allow the facts to be heard, and be known. That way the system will have been tested (again) and will be ensure that democracy is remains trusted by all.

You're incredibly naive about the power that Trump has with a growing section of American society.

And again, NO ONE is refusing these court actions. This is a straw man.

scroll past the squirrel

it will be shift change across the road from St Basils soon

@Ihaveyourback Yes I am upset and worried about the situation, because it potentially has dire consequences for democracy in the US and by extension globally (including here). You are very proud of you 'impartial' take and seem to think that this makes you somehow intellectually and morally superior to anyone taking a 'side'. Unfortunately the 'see both sides' stance has been shown over the last four years to be an elaborate con pulled by the Right, who consistently do anything but 'see both sides'.

What Trump is doing is by no means a good-faith test of the electoral system. No election before has been subject to this level of legal scrutiny, it's not a normal part of the process. Trump claimed after 2016 that voter fraud was widespread (because he was sore about losing the popular vote) - he set up an Inquiry into it which was abandoned a year later having found nothing. His accusations this time are not prompted by a particular concern, they are a piecemeal hotchpotch of different accusations that are being thrown at the wall to see what sticks. He signalled clearly that if he lost, he would take it to the courts - that's not how democracy works. Every day that he spends doing this is an extra day for the rot of distrust in the system to set in, an extra day for people to become anxious for their futures, an extra day lost for the process of a peaceful transfer of power.

You are very naive if you think all of this will end on the 8th December, or if indeed you think there is any circumstance in which Trump and his cult members will be satisfied that the election was fair and valid.