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Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To want to know if the Republicans have any grounds to suspect fraud

324 replies

DynamoKev · 09/11/2020 17:57

Not a fan of either Trump or Biden.

Due to Trump's pathetic behaviour it is easy to dismiss his claims.

But some claims (if true) seem to be worthy of investigation.

OP posts:
myrtleWilson · 10/11/2020 12:59

To opine repeatedly on a subject one is woefully ill-informed upon, and to do so repeatedly on a thread seems an unusual way to spend a Tuesday.. but I am sure it serves some purpose.... Wink

Quartz2208 · 10/11/2020 13:05

@HelloToMyKitty yes which is why they havent said anything yet - but how far do they take this?

The US is deeply deeply divided at the moment with two polarised viewpoints it doesnt need this at all

Ihaveyourback · 10/11/2020 13:06

I need to go, but just to say I think every one of us should support the peaceful and civilised pathway to a solution through the courts, or you will simply see this playing out on the streets in every state in the worst possible way.

It is not acceptable to have claims of fraud, they absolutely must be investigated. If their is no merit to the fraud claims/cases, it should be a simple process.
Whether this is what Mr Trump did or didn't want is rather beside the point, the voting process needs to be trusted and seen as fair by all.
It needs to be tested, it may need tightening up for future elections.

If it is found that there are no grave concerns, Mr Biden can expect much more support than would otherwise have been the case.

It will be settled by the 8th of December, it is not long to wait - and will conclude this chapter one way or another. I can't think that any of you were naive enough to think that Mr Trump would go quietly surely? Especially as he was so close to winning...so this was all expected to some degree.

We remain a democracy by being transparent, accountable and fair to all. That is how we move forward. It is the only way, whether you agree or disagree with the court action. It is best for everyone in the US that it is heard, otherwise this will always be considered a dirty, rigged election with no creditability whatsoever, and that would be the worst all worlds.

Ihaveyourback · 10/11/2020 13:07

**there

Quartz2208 · 10/11/2020 13:09

even though @Ihaveyourback there are already people quitting because this goes against the rule of law!

unmarkedbythat · 10/11/2020 13:12

They're so used to engaging in fraud, theft, blackmail, gerrymandering, voter oppression and general dishonesty themselves they can't believe that when they are beaten the other side has done so fairly. They don't act fairly, why would they think anyone else does?

QueenBlueberries · 10/11/2020 13:18

I think that in most elections, even in the most stable countries, there are irregularities which need to be solved. There are risks of fraud which need to be assessed. The point here is that there are some 'anecdotal' evidence, but is it systemic? In every state? Common? has it really had a direct impact on the results?

I think it's fair that it goes to court to try and identify and clarify the situation.

phoenixrosehere · 10/11/2020 13:18

He had it pre-planned to go down this route if he didn’t win the election. He was saying days before the election that he would take legal action if he didn’t win it. If he’d won there’s no way he’d be screaming about fraud, he’s just a sore loser.

This! Anyone who isn’t blind to his antics knew he was going to pull a stunt like this. The moment he thought he was losing, he wanted to stop the vote and the election still had a ways to go. That in itself should be illegal. A president trying to suppress/stop democracy. Those mail-in votes are the voices of the American people including the ones overseas, mostly made up of the American military.

If he had just let the election run its course and stayed quiet until afterwards with his accusation of voter fraud, he would likely have been taken a bit seriously but Trump has continuously shown he only cares about losing. I don’t understand how anyone can bring themselves to still support him after that and say he’s for all of the American people.

Dailyhandtowelwash · 10/11/2020 13:27

@DynamoKev

Part of the problem is not being able to trust every online source. There are claims of 95% turnout in at least one place, of tranches of votes without a single vote for Trump (possible but surely a little unlikely) and of dead people apparently casting ballots.

I realise and fully accept that some or all of these claims could be false and that they in any case may not affect the outcome.

Some of this comes down to how easy it is to manipulate what the complexities of the US voting system throws up. The votes are reported in varying groups, with some very tiny samples, so 95% for some small numbers is entirely possible. Tranches of votes for a single candidate occur when votes are reported in chunks, and so a chunk all counted for Biden, say, is reported in one go, and shortly after a second chunk with all the Trump votes, possibly plus some Biden is reported. So overall the votes are mixed. If you're watching closely (and the gift to the propaganda is that almost no one does, or should need to) you'll see the votes correct themselves into the wider pattern of the area. So it sounds very dramatic but there's nothing in it.

Far more concerning is the 0% of votes cast by those disenfranchised by voter suppressing state legislation, as mentioned already.

The rhetoric that there are credible claims of fraud that are not being considered by the court is spreading terribly quickly and powerfully, even though Trump has been promising to do this since 2016. The US Department of Justice, under the vile William Barr, has launched an investigation which there is no genuine evidence to support, lending what some will view as credibility to the whole accusation. We may be about to watch the US burn. It's appalling.

Ihaveyourback · 10/11/2020 13:32

The US Department of Justice, under the vile William Barr, has launched an investigation which there is no genuine evidence to support, lending what some will view as credibility to the whole accusation. We may be about to watch the US burn

I very much doubt any investigation would be launched with 'no genuine evidence' at all, it is simply not the case. There is creditability to the accusation until it is decided by a court that it is no longer credible! The US's global standing as a democracy will burn if this is NOT investigated. The very fact you seem appalled by it is concerning. The legal framework allows the claims to be heard.

I think what you are seeing is the slow demise of your dreams to see Mr Biden sweep to power uncontested, on that we agree, but that was never going to happen when it was obvious the Biden team did not win anything approaching a landslide. The rest is history

Dailyhandtowelwash · 10/11/2020 13:37

I very much doubt any investigation would be launched with 'no genuine evidence' at all, it is simply not the case.

Welcome to Trump's America. Read the reputable US press and their coverage of this move. I make no bones at all about wanting to see Biden as President, particularly as he has just won the election convincingly. I stand for democratic norms. I'm not posting under a feeble pretence of neutrality.

gwenneh · 10/11/2020 13:39

Barr's own memo says "...nothing here should be taken as any indication that the department has concluded that voting irregularities have impacted the outcome of any election."

So yes, it was indeed launched with "no genuine evidence".

UnconvincingUsername · 10/11/2020 13:40

The thing is, Trump and his supporters are accusing Republicans governors etc of running crooked elections to ‘steal’ votes from him. It’s causing real division within the Republican Party.

And it makes no sense at all. Why on Earth would all the republicans in Georgia be allowing large scale electoral fraud that benefits the democrats? Seriously. It’s patently ridiculous.

Undermining democracy in this way is the sort of thing dictators do. It’s dangerous and unhealthy. That’s how you end up in the mess countries like Belarus are in.

Mypathtriedtokillme · 10/11/2020 13:44

Your know your taking about the same guy who tried to fire the US attorney running the investigation into The Trumps, Giuliani in New York State who wasn’t even appointed by federal.

He’s corrupt as Trump.

SpaceOP · 10/11/2020 13:48

Ten separate court cases have fallen through

I don't believe that is the case, if overall election fraud is suspected this is a matter for the Supreme court. Individual law suits to stop counting or pause counting are separate to the legal action I am talking about.

This is funny. You don't even understand the basics of the US system. You can't just go to the Supreme Court. You have to go to the lower courts first. Then, if you think that you got an unfair or incorrect ruling, you can escalate via the higher courts. Until you get to the Supreme Court. And even then, the Supreme Court has to agree to take the case.

Right now, court cases are going universally against trump because he has no evidence and they're just being thrown out. I couldn't care less if they want to keep trying because, fair enough, if people are concerned they get to go to court. But it's clearly a load of bollocks so courts will continue to toss cases out. And if in one small instance there is something wrong (which, of course, is possible because it seems unlikely that voter fraud is 100% impossible), it will be miniscule and insignificant because Biden has won by a significant margin. The sheer scale of this supposed voter fraud would have to be massive.

Someone on facebook was ranting on about a supposed 181 year old man voting. FFS. Even if that WAS fraud, it's one vote and there is NO evidence of anything like this happening on a broad scale.

Xiaoxiong · 10/11/2020 13:50

if overall election fraud is suspected this is a matter for the Supreme court. Individual law suits to stop counting or pause counting are separate to the legal action I am talking about.

You have no idea what you're talking about. The "individual law suits" are exactly the first step in this process of legal appeal. They are the ones that, if lost by the Trump campaign, are the ones that will be appealed upwards. And the ultimate end of that line of appeals is the Supreme Court.

You can't go straight to the Supreme Court. It's an appeals court - they can't even consider a case unless it's been lost in a lower court. The very ones you say are "separate" - they're not. And so them being thrown out (10+ and counting so far) is relevant, because it's doing exactly what you say you want - evaluating the evidence and concluding it's a lot of bullshit from the sore losers in the Trump campaign.

DoreenWinkings · 10/11/2020 14:09

Invigilators were not able to check a single vote due to 'covid' and were forced to stand six metres away from the counters

I have done the count here in the UK and at no time have the observers been anywhere near us. There are obstacles (a ring of chairs in the last instance) to keep them back.

We still counted and tallied the votes properly because, you know, most people want no part in electoral fraud... even if the vote isn't going the way they want.

The vast majority of people - and I'm certain this goes for American people too - are glad to live in a democratic society. Because the alternatives aren't all that shit hot. So they accept the result, even if it isn't the result they wanted, because they know they will have chance after chance after chance to change it.

I have republican relatives in the US. They have accepted that Biden won. They're already looking to 2024... because they are normal people, as most American people are, and they accept that you win some and you lose some.

Every country has its small groups of crazies and idiots. The worst we can do now is give them a platform. I actually think think the "yeah, yeah, we'll look into it" attitude from the powers that be is the right way to go about it. I dont think anyone actually believes Bodensee win will be overturned. Because he won. BY, A LOT.

CuriousaboutSamphire · 10/11/2020 14:24

Invigilators were not able to check a single vote due to 'covid' and were forced to stand six metres away from the counters Maybe get some experience in such stuff.

I've been an official observer and never got close enough to see what box a tick was in. You are only there to make sure all boxes are emptied and all voting slips put on a pile!

Someone else checks the discards, spoiled votes etc.

Other people double check the vaid votes.

Observers just watch them as they do it!

EveryoneRevealsThemselves · 10/11/2020 14:58

A good article on Trump’s BS history of calling voter fraud.

www.independent.co.uk/news/world/americas/us-election-2020/donald-trump-voter-fraud-us-election-b1719996.html

Ihaveyourback · 10/11/2020 15:34

The great Justice Oliver Wendell Holmes defined the role of lawyers as predicting, in fact, what the courts will decide. So here is an objective and independent prediction as to how the courts will likely resolve the number of challenges brought by Trump and his lawyers.

He could win his case in Pennsylvania about ballots mailed before the end of the election but received over the next three days. Justice Samuel Alito, who oversees the federal circuit that includes Pennsylvania, has signalled Supreme Court interest in that issue by ordering all of these ballots to be counted separately then segregated.
The Pennsylvania secretary of state was doing this, but the order from Alito made clear that there are at least some others who could be ready to discount those votes.

Article Two provides that state legislatures determine rules for selecting members of the Electoral College. But it was the Pennsylvania high court, not the legislature, that extended time for receiving and counting mailed ballots by three days. It may have been a sensible decision in light of the coronavirus and problems with delivery. According to lawyers for Trump, the state high court lacked the authority to change the rules that mailed ballots have to be received before the end of the election.

Twenty years ago, in the Supreme Court decision in George Bush versus Al Gore, the majority voted along strictly partisan lines to stop the count ordered by the Florida high court. That decision had been based in part on Article Two. It is likely, therefore, that the even more partisan current Supreme Court might well side with Trump over this issue.

This is not clear cut folks, you may like it done and dusted and 'all lies' but it is not that simple.

Those that do not seem to understand the need for discussion and at the very least, consider different views are really wishing to live in a vast echo chamber and they will be surprised when events turn out differently to how they imagine/expect (Brexit and Trump's first win as two examples) Come out of the echo chamber, consider the two sides and try to expand your thinking. By only seeing one side (Biden for instance) you are underestimating the power of the other side. I am offering a different view, not because I am a Republican, because I am not, but because it is important for balance. Particularly on threads like this, that become very blinkered.

An ability (or lack of) to think beyond your own political view and consider other points is startling on this thread.

3ormorecharacters · 10/11/2020 15:45

@Ihaveyourback

Nice copying and pasting from The Hill! The affected ballots in PA amount to about 3000 and have not so far been included in the totals, so are completely immaterial to the outcome of the election in PA or elsewhere.

As I said earlier, I think there is a place for dismissing the 'other side' where necessary. All too often it's the centre / left that is called to be 'balanced' and 'think beyond your own political point of view'. The courtesy is rarely returned by those on the Right who increasingly act in unashamed hypocrisy and show a blatant and frankly scary disregard for democratic norms. We need to start calling this out more, not less.

Ihaveyourback · 10/11/2020 15:47

Yes and to finish!

Challenging election results, even with demanding recounts or bringing lawsuits, is part of democracy, when the ultimate loser notes the results and concedes defeat, as Gore did back in 2000. Trump and his lawyers should not be condemned, as they have been by many, for pursuing the lawsuits. Once the remedies are exhausted, the American way demands that the loser concedes with the final mandated outcome.

Quartz2208 · 10/11/2020 15:51

This isnt about sides though @Ihaveyourback at all. This is about the rule of law. And the use of social media to try and overcome the rule of law to their own gain

3ormorecharacters · 10/11/2020 15:54

@Ihaveyourback It is clear to all but the most wilfully blind that this is a strategy Trump has been preparing for the event of losing the election. Even before the election I could have told you he would do this. He has no single story as to how the election was rigged, just that it was. His only 'proof' is that he lost. That is not how democracy works I'm afraid.

I'll ask you one more time - at what point will you feel satisfied that there is no case to answer? Because it's been to court 10 times and been thrown out each time, so you clearly don't actually trust the courts to decide.

ListeningQuietly · 10/11/2020 15:59

scroll past the squirrel