Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

And the bigger house is relevant - my DH has our 3 dcs only one night a week (and often only 2 of them in the end), he can do that in a small 2 bed flat, but that's not sustainable for me to do in the long term.
That’s a shame for your children that their DF can’t or won’t accommodate them properly when they are with him. I can only guess this may make them less and less likely to want to go at all as they get older.
It’s not evidence that fathers in general shouldn’t be expected to do this though.

You shouldn’t be cutting maintenance payments- that’s just shitty behaviour.

Everyone has to cut their cloth when these things happen. Parents who are still together have to re budget and manage, the op has had to re budget and manage on his own, so his ex can re budget and manage too.

Or, if he gives the same amount of maintenance he will have to make that money up somewhere like not paying for extras for his dd or downsizing his house meaning his dd won’t have the same space as she had before, or he’ll have to see her less as he can’t afford the petrol to collect her. Would that be ok? No not really, but if he carries on paying maintenance he might have to do these things. So what I’m trying to say is, his dd will lose out somewhere down the line as all children do when their parent’s income goes down. He can’t keep up everything with less money.

I don’t see why he should keep the maintenance amount the same and forfeit his own life with his dd. His ex will just have to manage.

Stop congratulating yourself on your amazing display of parenthood.

My god. How many women do we see on here congratulating themselves or patting each other on the back for just for doing what they should be doing? A dad mentions what he does for his children and he’s told to shut up. I do more than my ex, but I don’t disregard the things he does do.

@funinthesun19

Stop congratulating yourself on your amazing display of parenthood.

My god. How many women do we see on here congratulating themselves or patting each other on the back for just for doing what they should be doing? A dad mentions what he does for his children and he’s told to shut up. I do more than my ex, but I don’t disregard the things he does do.

I completely agree. Like I said before, there's a lot of projection on this thread!

See it from her point of view. She is suddenly getting less money. She may have given you a hard time as she is worried and cross at the situation. And you are not her favourite person being an ex. We do get a bit irrational about exs. Also maybe why she got pissed off and said no to paying back the loan.

Possibly she is pissed off with all the day to day stuff that she has to do. Ex gets it in the neck when I have had a tough time with them, because what he's an ex any therefore by definition we don't get on well enough to stay together and he's annoying. (And vice versa)

Yes I get pissed off with ex sometimes as he does "sod all" with them but that is usually more he hasn't done one thing that I am now getting teen backchat for. It is easy to forget that he is working full time to support them when you are at the sharp end of teen behaviour or toddler tantrums and all the stuff in between.

Anyway, just because she says you are useless does not mean she meant it or it is true. I don't think the Disney dad comment is fair.

£50 for fuel for over an hour away is a bit steep too based on my travelling to relatives. More than double the amount it costs me.

Childcare is how it costs that much

Not when the RP in question doesn't have a job?

How many women do we see on here congratulating themselves or patting each other on the back for just for doing what they should be doing? A dad mentions what he does for his children and he’s told to shut up.

You must be reading different threads to me. When complaining about childcare/schools shutting etc., women are regularly told to suck it up, that's part of being a parent.

I do more than my ex, but I don’t disregard the things he does do.

Truth is, we're societally conditioned to expect mums to do most of the grind. You're a bad mum if you don't do this. Whereas you're a great dad if you take your kid to the zoo on a weekend afternoon. That's the reason women "do more" (and pay more) than their exes. Because they have to. It is expected of them. If they don't, they're failing their kids.

Question for everyone - can a woman be a good mother if she pays the correct child maintenance and sees her children EOW?

@WithoutATtrace

You sprout the same crap as every bloke over having to pay maintenance, it's so predictable. If she gets a job, you will then also have to pay for 50% of the Childcare, or look after your DD on top.

Your debts are your own and nothing to do with your ex.

Go through the CSA, but do not come on here being a Disney Dad because that's exactly what you are.

He's not spouting crap, he's not complaining about paying maintenance (in fact he's paying as much as he can afford) and he never said his debts were the fault or responsibility of his ex.

£500 a month is a lot.

My DP gets £350 from DSS's mum, and she has a really high paid job.

I'm not sure what's happened in your life to make you react like this, but you've been very rude to this man and he didn't deserve it.

I’ve asked before in other threads and never got an answer, but what do people expect will happen when parents split up? The ideal scenario of two parents in a happy stable relationship, working together to provide for and bring up their children together in a stable and happy home has been taken off the table. Everything that happens after that is a compromise.
50:50 = fair for parents, unfair for kids, useless dads just trying to avoid maintenance
EOW and 1/2 hols = stable base good for kids, deadbeat dad doesn’t spent enough time with kids
Dad pays over CMS minimum when he earns enough overtime = well that’s nothing, you need £10k per month per child, he’s not doing anything special
Dad cuts maintenance when he no longer earns that money = waste of space, mean, what a loser
Mum wants dad to do more = still wants him working all the overtime because she still wants the money, doesn’t actually want to “share” the children when it comes to Christmas etc.
Dad says he can switch jobs in his company to be more regularly available, but cannot then sustain maintenance levels and will be less able to do sick days and other things that come up = what a dick, just being difficult, not puting his child first
Dad needs money to have a bedroom for his children too = what an arsehole, she should be paying that money to their mother
Dad cannot afford a bedroom and kids are on air beds = what a loser, he obviously doesn’t want to see them at all and it’s supposed to be equally their home

Some examples from this thread, others , and my real life.
What’s the answer? Everything cannot be all ways at all times. It doesn’t work like that.

Agreed - as I said - if you have no more money, you have no more money, an no amount of someone calling you a deadbeat will suddenly make money appear.

Divorce makes men significantly richer. It makes women and children significantly poorer.

Although these are generalisations, it is worth bearing them in mind.

Divorce makes men significantly richer. It makes women and children significantly poorer.

Although these are generalisations, it is worth bearing them in mind.

not in this case clearly .... £500 is a lot of money for one child. 🌺

Truth is, we're societally conditioned to expect mums to do most of the grind. You're a bad mum if you don't do this. Whereas you're a great dad if you take your kid to the zoo on a weekend afternoon. That's the reason women "do more" (and pay more) than their exes. Because they have to. It is expected of them. If they don't, they're failing their kids.

To be honest I agree with this. Slightly different but still very relevant, I’ve seen stepmums on here get left to do everything and the reason why they’re so heavily scrutinised is because more is expected of them. A stepdad is amazing for doing a lot less the same way a dad is amazing for doing a lot less.

So I will take back my previous comment.

@MessAllOver

Divorce makes men significantly richer. It makes women and children significantly poorer.

Although these are generalisations, it is worth bearing them in mind.

WTAF - let's see you evidence please? Otherwise you're just talking bollocks.

not in this case clearly .... £500 is a lot of money for one child.

But the OP must be earning a lot to have to pay that. And he gets to keep most of it himself.

What would be interesting (if the OP comes back) would be to get an idea of the earning potential of his ex? What did the mum do before the child was born? Was it a joint decision to have a child? Are there practical steps she can take to improve her financial position, given she's a single mum to 2 kids?

WTAF - let's see you evidence please? Otherwise you're just talking bollocks.

Ok.....I had thought it was widely understood that women, as a general rule, are left financially screwed by divorce .

In any case...

www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/the-divorce-gap/480333/
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1127333/For-richer-poorer-Why-divorce-makes-men-wealthier--women-left-worse-off.html
www.newstatesman.com/node/152258
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5992251/

From the last study: the key domain in which large and persistent gender differences emerged were women’s disproportionate losses in household income and associated increases in their risk of poverty and single parenting. Taken together, these findings suggest that men’s disproportionate strain of divorce is transient, whereas women’s is chronic.

Just put the figures through the CMS calculator HOWEVER they only review them once per year... so if you assess it now using them then that is it whether you get overtime or not etc.

Check what the CMS would assess it as and pay that. Ignore any complaints etc and rise above it, you know if you are paying the CMS minimum (and it is the minimum) so why is it bothering you so much what an ex says?

Wow I wish I was getting £500 a month, you can’t please some people on here. My ex pays £7 a week for 4 kids. You sound like a good dad op.

@MessAllOver

WTAF - let's see you evidence please? Otherwise you're just talking bollocks.

Ok.....I had thought it was widely understood that women, as a general rule, are left financially screwed by divorce .

In any case...

www.theatlantic.com/business/archive/2016/04/the-divorce-gap/480333/
www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1127333/For-richer-poorer-Why-divorce-makes-men-wealthier--women-left-worse-off.html
www.newstatesman.com/node/152258
www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5992251/

From the last study: the key domain in which large and persistent gender differences emerged were women’s disproportionate losses in household income and associated increases in their risk of poverty and single parenting. Taken together, these findings suggest that men’s disproportionate strain of divorce is transient, whereas women’s is chronic.

I don't see how this is relevant to the OP though? He hasn't said he's refusing to pay maintenance and he sees his daughter regularly and buys her extra things on top of the maintenance he provides. Due to the unforeseen impact of a global pandemic, he now finds himself in a different financial situation, like so many other thousands of people currently. So why he is getting such a hard time on this thread is beyond me. If this was a single mum coming on here saying they were struggling to make ends meet because of the impact of Covid on their work, she'd be met with complete sympathy and compassion. I stand by my view that these generalisations lead to unfair and unwarranted projections towards decent people who are doing their best, as in the case of the OP from what he has presented thus far.

But the OP must be earning a lot to have to pay that. And he gets to keep most of it himself.

That's what happens when you work hard for a career and earn well. I earn a good salary and whilst a lot of it obviously goes on my daughter, a good proportion is also mine to keep for myself because I've worked my arse off for it and I deserve to have something to show for it. No reason why mum couldn't do the same if she was driven in the same way to achieve something career wise.

@LouJ85.

I agree, the divorce point is not relevant to the OP. I was just replying to the pp above.

For starters, it doesn't sound like the OP was ever married to his ex. Musing on that point...if there is one surer route into poverty than divorce, it's being an unmarried mother whose relationship breaks down.

But back to the OP. He sounds like a good enough dad by our low standards for dads. He pays a fair whack of maintenance and shows some interest in his child's life. Albeit it has to be convenient for him and fit around his work:

If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work.

Mum is still on duty as "default", though, while dad makes (and keeps most of) the cash.

Then the OP cuts maintenance without much warning and, surprise, surprise, that's likely to cause financial difficulties for mum. Which will be harmful for his daughter.

His solution? Mum should get a job. Fair enough, you might think, and you'd probably be right. Even though she has the child 6/7 of the time, she should contribute financially as well. Except there's another child whose age we don't know (are they school age?) and no explanation of whether there are school-hours only jobs which mum could get. Or, failing that, whether there is good reliable wrap-around childcare available at an affordable cost for both children so mum can work full-time. Because mum, unlike dad, doesn't have a babysitter on standby 24/7.

It does strike me that the OP is being a little unreasonable here. It's all very well carping at his lazy, greedy ex and bigging up how much he likes to spend time with his child, but she does most of the day-to-day caring and we have no information about whether she could sensibly get a job or not. Especially, as has been pointed out above, since she will get no help with childcare costs from the OP.

No reason why mum couldn't do the same if she was driven in the same way to achieve something career wise.

No, especially if she dumps the child on dad's doorstep and therefore has all her time free to devote to her career.

@MessAllOver

No reason why mum couldn't do the same if she was driven in the same way to achieve something career wise.

No, especially if she dumps the child on dad's doorstep and therefore has all her time free to devote to her career.

I didn't dump my child on her Dads doorstep in order to achieve my own career. I paid for childcare and had some (minimal) family help. Her Dad had her on his own contact time. So my point is... it's possible. Depends how much you want it.

I also studied bloody hard on evenings and weekends (the ones her Dad had his agreed contact) for all 3 of my university degrees.

@WithoutATtrace

You sprout the same crap as every bloke over having to pay maintenance, it's so predictable. If she gets a job, you will then also have to pay for 50% of the Childcare, or look after your DD on top.

Your debts are your own and nothing to do with your ex.

Go through the CSA, but do not come on here being a Disney Dad because that's exactly what you are.

No he won’t have to pay 50% of childcare. His other half should find a job tbh! Also if she works part time she can use a childminder possibly and get help with childcare costs if needed.

What world are you living in? Most mothers don’t get £300-£500 a month for one child per month plus half of childcare care costs on top unless your lucky!