Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

For starters

and I have even given extra money

There's no such thing as this.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator

The cms calculation is a legal MINIMUM you should be paying.

Do you know how much it is costing your ex to raise your child? Do you think it costs £1000 per month or less? Because that's extremely unlikely! It's not just direct costs like food and drink, clothes, shoes, haircuts, otc medical items, uniform, school equipment though those soon add up! It's also a larger home to provide a bedroom, which means higher council tax, higher utility bills, more cleaning products and toiletries, furniture, soft furnishings and other household items eg her bedside lamp, transport, Christmas and birthday items (not gifts, but all the peripherals), toys, games, tech, activities and entertainment funding... are you remembering ALL of this when you're thinking of how oh so generous you are?

as that was all I could manage that month

Have you reduced your outgoings to their absolute minimum? By cutting out ALL luxuries, shopping around suppliers, contacting creditors to reach alternative arrangements with them possibly with the help of a debt charity?

I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

did you discuss this with her mother in order to ensure you bought the things she needed most? That were most suitable for her?

and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused)

true colours starting to show op

I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work

And your ex does FAR more than this and doesn't expect a bloody medal for it

Chris rock quote:

On Self-Congratulatory Parents:
“[A person] will brag about something they’re supposed to do. Like, ‘I take care of my kids.’ You’re supposed to you dumb motherf—ker!”

This is not you going above and beyond as you're trying to make out

Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

YOU don't have the obstacles to obtaining work that she does.

If she did go to work would you pay half YOUR daughters childcare costs? Or are you going to cover 50% of childcare?

Bet you wouldn't even though you should!

You're able to work the hours you do as a parent because you DON'T have full or even 50/50 care of your child.

And...I see the usual race to the bottom from some mners.

Just because your exes behaved like selfish shits doesn't mean you should be telling op how he's behaving is ok cos it's not!

Go through the CSA, but do not come on here being a Disney Dad because that's exactly what you are.

Hear hear!!

Nobody was rude they just stated their opinion which they are entitled to do! And before denying being a Disney dad maybe check the definition first?

You can't cherry pick the answers that suit you! Your attitude belies your claimed attitude towards your ex

It's almost pointless myself or other dissenters posting as you're clearly completely uninterested in hearing any ideas that or opinions that mean you'll be worse off!

But maybe those thoughts will reach others reading

men coming to Mumsnet to get advice and slag off women doesn't sit well with me

That's the bullshit I'm detecting too, is the ex on mn and has mentioned to him I wonder?

@slipperywhensparticus

On cms you cant just drop it because your income is changing for one month so go ahead fill your boots

But they would base it off OPs basic salary, not his overtime (which isn't a given and is subject to change month by month) wouldn't they?

So far it seems OP has been paying more than he could afford without the overtime. If the overtime is then no longer there then obviously he can't pay the same amount.

@Ffsffsffsffsffs. I'm always amazed that people complain about paying child maintenance. It's such a cheap option compared to the actual costs involved in raising a child. It's very good value, really...shuffle your children onto your ex who provides 24/7 care and then lots of dads seem to pay less than £200 a month. Where would anyone ever find childcare for that amount? The non-resident parent generally has to be a very high earner (like the OP) to pay anywhere near their share of the financial costs.

@Fran1997

I don't know if it's me who's out of touch but I almost fell over when I saw your giving her £500 a month I think that's amazing of you. I think you need to seek help and advice as others have suggested. You sound like an amazing dad my child's father pays me not one penny. And I'm only 22 and he's 34 so he earns a heck of a lot more than me and should be more mature. It's very hard when the other parent is so unreasonable I feel your pain

He’s not amazing for giving a fair proportion of his wages.

His ex sounds like a pain, but hero-worshipping of men who do the bare minimum (which paying maintenance appropriate to wages is) doesn’t help.

@WithoutATtrace I don’t think all men are liars....the same as all women are not sunshine and rainbows!

I’m guessing that your ex doesn’t want to go through CMS because she has an inkling that the amount you’d be expected to pay will be less than what you’ve been giving her (pre Covid). Do you have a repayment agreement or something with your ex regarding the money she owes you? If you don’t you might as well kiss goodbye to that. Your ex getting a job isn’t your business and won’t have an effect on you personally- you’ll still be paying the same amount of child support.

He’s not amazing for giving a fair proportion of his wages.
His ex sounds like a pain, but hero-worshipping of men who do the bare minimum (which paying maintenance appropriate to wages is) doesn’t help.

Amen.

I would say YANBU except for the ‘get a job’ comment. If she works, you will have the cost of childcare to deal with and/or will have much less flex in terms of when you work so you can do school pick-up etc. If your ex died tomorrow and you had sole custody, what impact would that have on your ability to do paid work? Even if your daughter is in school, making work fit around that is still not easy

Well, you did post on AIBU OP. You’re going to get more “robust” responses on here.

Op I cannot say if you are "wrong" I cannot say if you are a good dad. It is subjective and your daughter will make up her own mind about that.

On maintenance, work out what you should pay as the legal minimum by all means and use the CMS, they are there for when separated parents can't agree. It will take the emotions out of it and maybe you will find it easier. There is no guarantee though.

As far as what is fair and right in your situation, that is not for me to say - I work for an advice charity, I speak to parents on either side of situations similar to yours op. I am forever being told "it's not fair!" and asked "is it fair?" in different ways. That is rarely what is important, as we are not talking about 5 year olds sharing a bag of sweets. This is separated parents trying to co-parent and come up with a workable plan. Hurt feelings, subjective notions of fairness and tit for tat twattery, has no place.

I advise using mediation not Mumsnet if you want an objective third party to help broker a new plan, it is cheaper than court and may help you come up with a written arrangement a compromise where you both feel a bit hard done by and so is probably as close to "fair" as you will get. This is about what is right for your daughter that you made.

Pay the correct amount of CMS - go down the correct route and let them work it out - then she has no recourse.

Stop lending her money - let her current partner or previous man she had a child with lend her money next time.

Some people on here are ridiculous. Most single mothers manage to work, myself included. The way people act as if it's impossible is laughable. As a single parent I get the majority of my childcare paid for by tax credits and the maintenance I get from my ex is more than enough to cover the rest.

@Graphista has it.

Stop congratulating yourself on your amazing display of parenthood. You are doing the minimum and taking none of the hit to your career or lifestyle, so stop it already.

CMS is the bare minimum, and CM is to cover a portion of the child's needs. In reality it doesn't even come close, even £500 is less than half. You should have cut every last luxury for yourself before even thinking of cutting what you pay for your child.

Your ex facilitates your ability to work flexibly and earn a high income by doing all the day to day work and logistics involved in caring for the child. You might be paying, but the odd trip to the park or weekend in no way makes up for the day to day work and career/life limitations of single parenthood.

Why not attend meditation as suggested by PP and work out a plan that is in the child's best interests.

I think you're getting a hard time from some people OP.

I'd much rather my Ex saw my DD regularly for a few hours at a time than a snatched hour here and there with no pattern like when we were together. So from a contact point of view my advice would be remain consistent and try and stick into a set pattern of say Wednesday and EOW.

I'm not saying your a good dad as I only have your side of things but you're far from a s*t one from what you say. My Ex refuses to see DD more than he has to and pays the bare minimum of maintenance with no help with childcare and even he isn't a s*t dad to me.

CMS are a good starting point but don't always rely on it. If you can and have the ability too I'd always have more than that. We don't know your ex's full situation to be able to decide if she should/could work or not.

Good luck Op, hope it sorts itself out.

Your not being unreasonable
Not knowing your salary or overtime pay I'd say £500 is rather fair so long as you are paying extra when needed oh DD needs school shoes here's £20 oh she needs a new coat etc..

Can I just say to other commenters what do you spend your money on "kids cost thousands"
I only earn 1.400 a month so my rent bills food shops etc I'm a single mother with no help from dad yes they need a roof over there head food in there belly's toys days out etc but half of that is £700 he is not paying for the roof over my head or my food or my luxury's so take out my that and what I have "spare" is proberly only about £4-500 a month to pay for the actual child so In all fairness paying £500 for one child is about right.. and his wage loss is a problem if they was still together that means no treats oh we might be short on rent or bills this month let's shop at the cheeper shops,

Yes telling her to get a job is being a bit dickish as she has the child majority of the time minus your weekends that's still 26 days of the month it's hard to find a job to fit in round school hours as you said she's five so In full time school, maybe offer paying half the childcare or better yet offer more weekends so she can work, which means you'll pay less anyway

I think you sound like a good dad just remember that's it's not easy raising a child and it takes two maybe sit down and change your agreement

Why don’t you sit down and work out how much it would cost you to have your daughter full time, while she spends two weekend a month at her mothers?

Youlll need to factor in the cost of full time childcare for the 13 weeks of school holidays a year, plus before and after school. And of course extra for all the overtime you do. Or maybe you will have to stop all that overtime for the sake of your child - how much of the week can you leave her in childcare ?

To give you a guide - aftre achool club will be about £70 a week, so that’s £300 a month.

Holiday childcare will be about £120 a week. Let’s assume that your ex has her for 3 weeks of the holidays , you have her three weeks on holiday so you have have 7 weeks to cover , that’s 840 each year, averaging at another £70 a month.

So that’s now nearly £400 a month just on child care. Plus your loss of any overtime of course.

Then of course there’s food, school lunches , clothes, entertainment, electronics , hobbies, sports, out of school activities etc.

Once you work out the cost of all that, you will be able to see if your £300- 500 a month is as generous as you think.

OP you sound like a good Father ... 🌺

Take most responses on here with a pinch of salt. Some of the women on here are very anti dad if separated.

You sound like you are providing to the best of your abilities. Your ex seems to have enjoyed taking advantage of you when it suits.

Firstly, I believe that she should be seeking employment herself. If she is able to work she should do so, rather than relying on others to fund her lifestyle. It seems she has been able to live a life of not having to work and shes peeved that this funding is going down.

Secondly, it is not your job to provide her with an amount of her choosing every month. If your job changes pay then she needs to deal with this. Her having a job herself would help with any shortfalls. You also need to be able to provide for yourself.

Her telling you that you aren't a good dad seems to be a way of manipulating you to push you into giving the previous amount. Dont listen.

If I were you I'd limit your contact at this point to things only involving your child. When she starts slinging abuse and trying to push you to pay more dont respond. Only text, don't do phone calls. And only respond to questions affecting your child such as drop off times etc.

Also, I'm sure you've learned a lesson here, but don't loan her any more money. Its clear she doesn't intend to give it back so cut your losses and refuse any further loans.

I think the key here is to distance yourself unless its specifically about something to do with your child's needs etc. That way she can't keep milking you for whatever she wants at the time.

Do you know how much it is costing your ex to raise your child? Do you think it costs £1000 per month or less? Because that's extremely unlikely! It's not just direct costs like food and drink, clothes, shoes, haircuts, otc medical items, uniform, school equipment though those soon add up! It's also a larger home to provide a bedroom, which means higher council tax, higher utility bills, more cleaning products and toiletries, furniture, soft furnishings and other household items eg her bedside lamp, transport, Christmas and birthday items (not gifts, but all the peripherals), toys, games, tech, activities and entertainment funding... are you remembering ALL of this when you're thinking of how oh so generous you are?
I always think this argument only really applies if the dad doesn’t see the child at all. A dad with overnight access is expected to provide appropriate accommodation for his child, and for his home to be their home too.
We certainly have a bigger house than we would if we didn’t have DSD to think about. I’ve always taken the general MN advice to expect my step child to come to live here permanently any day at the drop of a hat, so we bought our home accordingly and pay more mortgage council tax etc than we would otherwise.
We also don’t make her sit with her satsuma and chocolate coins while DS opens £££ of gifts at Christmas either

FFS! Some of the responses on here are insane.

To be paying £500pcm in child support, a person will probably earn between £50000-60000.

And yet there are posters saying that isn’t enough to give a child a good life?

That child support number is based on someone earning significantly more than the national average. It follows that it is significantly more financial support than most kids get from their parents.

It absolutely isn’t a race to the bottom but kids can be given a great life on that. In fact, most kids in this country live very well on much less than that.

And, just a reminder, the OP has been paying this amount AND extra money to the mother of his child when requested AND the usual clothes, toys etc.

People saying the OP's ex should work need to remember that she has a second child too. Not the OP's problem, I know, but (depending on age) this will affect whether it's practically and financially possible for her to work.

OP, the problem is that you sort of need your ex to be ok and keep it together because otherwise it's your daughter who will suffer. If there's bailiffs at the door or your ex can't pay her bills, it's not going to be good for your daughter regardless of what is "fair". So you should take that into account when cutting maintenance.

I agree YouSeeTheThingIs.

I don't understand the bigger house argument. We also have to have a house big enough to house the DC because my step children live here multiple nights a week. It's not Harry potter, they don't live under our stairs when they stay, they have a room here just like they do at their mums.

I'm another parent who receives no maintenance from my children's father, he has zero interest in them and has never provided. I would be over the moon with £50 a month to help me out, let alone £400! I think she needs a reality check, you can't draw blood from a stone can you, if you simply aren't earning enough to pay 400 then what can you do apart from not pay your own bills/ buy yourself food etc?

Do you know how much it is costing your ex to raise your child? Do you think it costs £1000 per month or less? Because that's extremely unlikely! It's not just direct costs like food and drink, clothes, shoes, haircuts, otc medical items, uniform, school equipment though those soon add up! It's also a larger home to provide a bedroom, which means higher council tax, higher utility bills, more cleaning products and toiletries, furniture, soft furnishings and other household items eg her bedside lamp, transport, Christmas and birthday items (not gifts, but all the peripherals), toys, games, tech, activities and entertainment funding... are you remembering ALL of this when you're thinking of how oh so generous you are?

I have to ask - how much do you spend on your child? and on yourself? and on your general housing and living costs?

Your post suggests you spend more than £1000 per month on your child. So £12k per year. Let’s assume you spend the same on yourself (adult clothes may last longer but they are more expensive, adults eat more etc). That is £24000 per year for one adult and one child.

You would need a pre tax salary of £30000 for that. That is the average salary for one person in the UK.

Short version - you are crazy if you think it costs more than £1000 per month to raise a child.

How old are your ex's children, OP? If they are school age I agree that she should be working in some capacity. They're her kids too so she should be earning to provide for them also!