Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

Poster said he cms calculated almost £500 per month, which assuming he has no other children puts his income at around £50k.

My point I have been making is people see an amount bigger than they get and assume that this poor guy is being ripped off. But surely he is paying the right amount - he just happens to earn more than your ex.

£800 per week is a c£40k salary. Which is above average yes but lots of people earn more.

I hate the fact that if your are seen as only paying the minimum child maintenance you're a bad father.

Remember the majority of marriages break down due to infidelity so trust is going to be a big issue.

Would people really pay more than legally have to? If I was a NRP I would spend what is required to by law which then leaves me the choice to assist further or spend my money on what I can afford for that particular month and not be held to ransom by RP

Just amazed at how many people here don't see it as being a dad's problem if his kids are living in poverty.

If the kids are living in poverty why not move in with dad?

Well, that's an option.

If there is enough money to go round, the kids shouldn't be going without... End of. So either mum genuinely can't work or, if she does work, can't earn enough (in which case dad should give more if he cares about his kids) or she's a lazy spendthrift scrounger who doesn't put their welfare first (in which case surely dad should fight to be primary carer).

What I don't understand is how people can sleep at night knowing their kids are going without when they have the means to help.

@MessAllOver

Just amazed at how many people here don't see it as being a dad's problem if his kids are living in poverty.

I'm personally amazed at how many excuse what is clearly lazy behaviour on the part of the RP in cases where RP is fully able to work (and has offers of free childcare from extended family), yet chooses not to. If this extra income would pull her kids up off the poverty line, and give them that little bit extra for treats, why isn't she also held accountable for making sure her kids don't go without? Instead it's so much easier isn't it to continue to berate Dad for being "useless" and not forking out more and more to compensate for his ex's laziness. This personally infuriates me. I get the argument of childcare and it being false economy to work full time of you can't afford childcare, but in my example it isn't an issue. Just easier to ignore or deny that RPs can also make decisions that negatively affect their children, isn't it...

(Without wanting to argue with you again!! It's not just your posts, there are many that ignore this issue!)

I hate the fact that if your are seen as only paying the minimum child maintenance you're a bad father.

I hate this too. The calculator is there for a reason - there has to be means of standardising payments. Otherwise who would determine what’s “reasonable”? Separated parents generally aren’t likely to always amicably agree, are they. That’s what the calculator is there for. Say Dad was a gold standard father who went, alright, the minimum probably isn’t enough, I’ll transfer x amount extra as well. Mum receives x amount, takes one look at it and goes”that’s not enough to raise these kids on, I need more...” Where is the line and who draws it? Does Dad just continue to empty his account until he can’t pay his own rent and bills, so long as Mum is happy with the amount she’s receiving? It’s not feasible. There needs to be a standardised approach.

Remember the majority of marriages break down due to infidelity so trust is going to be a big issue.

Yes. And some marriages have involved fraudulent and financially irresponsible behaviour on the part of the RP, leading the NRP to prefer to distribute his funds to the children directly so he knows exactly where it’s going. I speak from experience.

But even if the RP is being a financially irresponsible lazy parent, why would a well-off NRP leave the kids to suffer from that? If you believe that about your ex, surely you go for custody?

@MessAllOver

Being unable to afford a costly court case? The children not wanting that? Many reasons ..

But some of the NRPs we're talking about are financially well-off. 50k plus. If they truly believe their ex is a bad parent, they should be moving heaven and earth to have the children with them.

@MessAllOver

Everyone has a different definition of "bad parent" though. Clearly there are things that are indisputably "bad", such as abuse (no NRP would leave their child in that situation regardless of income, you would hope!). But then there are the more grey areas... Mum chooses to spend money on a haircut instead of buying the kids the treat they've been asking for, for example. Or takes out a credit card for a treat for herself, knowing she'll have to cut back on days out for the kids to make the minimum payment. Some might say what a shit mother, quick give the NRP custody. Others might say she's not doing too badly, the kids are clothed and fed and the minimum is being done.

In my example, the kids are not abused and are clothed and fed (DP would have no hesitation at fighting for custody if there were concerns about any of these things, of course he wouldn't). Instead, it's a situation whereby mum's life choices (which she alone as a fully competent adult is responsible for) leave her with little disposable income. Is she a bad parent who should lose her kids because they're at immediate risk? No, I'd argue not. Is she irresponsible and guilty of making poor decisions? Absolutely.

And even if my DP thought it was unacceptable that she bought herself a handbag instead of taking them out for the day, and went for custody via the courts, there's no way in hell that would even come close to being a good enough reason for the courts to hand over residency to the NRP. Especially when 2 kids aged 11 and 13 are saying they want to stay living with mum. It wouldn't happen. It would be an expensive fruitless task..

Why do the kids prefer to stay with mum if she makes such bad choices and they could have more treats and fun with you?

@MessAllOver

That's a really good question. Numerous reasons I think. I think it's partly because the estate they live on is where they've grown up and their school friends are there. Also mum is shall we say less boundaried than we are - DP is the disciplinarian (at one time Mum used to phone DP when they misbehaved saying "can you tell your kids off", which really hasn't helped her to have any authority as she's undermining herself in the process, but there you go...), so they "get away with" more at mum's if you like. Kids also will have no concept of things such as fraud etc...that's the sort of thing that the adults are left to mop up. And I also think kids often just have a blind loyalty to their parents don't they, regardless of poor behaviour on the parents part, not wanting to upset the apple cart so to speak. Who knows

In my case, when I had children with my ex, I only worked on a very pt basis. 1) because that's all he would allow (told you he was a controller) and 2) because someone had to look after the kids and he refused to pay for childcare. I was reprimanded for returning to work at all by both my ex-husband and my ex-FIL.
This facilitated him having all of the hours of the day to grow his business. He did zero childcare. He was never present as a husband. His main goal in life (and still is) was to make money. The more he earns, the "better" a man he is.
It meant that I stayed static in my career (although he said teaching couldn't be classed as such) for a number of years. My youngest was only three when I left him and became "single", especially from a financial pov.
That left me with little disposable income but definitely not through irresponsibility nor poor decision making, @LouJ85.

It also meant I went without much food and no heating when the kids were with their dad. All of my earnings went on paying for the tiny (damp amd mouldy) private rented. I was fortunate in that my school had a position in which I could push up my working hours, but I still had a preschooler and 6 yo to care for.

@Nicknamegoeshere

Yes I was just referring to my DP's ex and making the point that sometimes NRP's are reluctant to hand over yet more funds (above and beyond the minimum amount that so many get criticised for), because they know that such funds are likely to be used irresponsibly. Someone with a track record of fraud and racking up credit card debts without their husband's knowledge that he was left to pay off with his salary alone, is unlikely to make wise financial choices.

Your ex sounds quite unpleasant. In the same way my DP's ex is (and has similarly displayed some elements of controlling behaviour towards him). So I suppose I just wanted there to be some acknowledgment on this thread that, sometimes, NRPs are bloody decent hard working men just trying their best for their kids in circumstances made unnecessarily difficult by the RP (both during marriage and afterwards). And therefore not all NRPs who come on MN for advise deserve the bashing the OP got.

@Nicknamegoeshere

It also meant I went without much food and no heating when the kids were with their dad. All of my earnings went on paying for the tiny (damp amd mouldy) private rented. I was fortunate in that my school had a position in which I could push up my working hours, but I still had a preschooler and 6 yo to care for.

This sound very tough indeed. I hope things are better for you and your kids now.

@LouJ85 Marginally. Seven years on and he's still raging!