Child maintenance

[Orinoco82]

Hi all, this is my first post on here, feels a bit strange as I’m a bloke posting on Mumsnet but there we are!

I’m basically just after some advice and other folks opinion on an issue I’m having with my daughters mum regarding the maintenance that I pay to her monthly.

I’ll try not to go on too much so here goes.

I have a daughter who is 5 years old and lives with her mum. Her mum and I separated before she was born but I have been there since day one and have always paid maintenance on time and every time without fail and I have even given extra money and lent money (which I never got back) on occasion.

I normally pay just under £500 per month maintenance to my ex but when this Coronavirus crap first hit earlier this year and the country went into the first lock down, the company I work for basically cancelled all overtime and call out which would have a substantial impact on my earnings (approx down £1200-1500 per month). As soon as I found out my earnings were going to cut, I thought it only fair that I tell my ex that her maintenance will be reducing which, although not what she wanted, she didn’t give me too hard a hard time over. I normally do a lot of overtime as I have debts that I’m trying desperately to clear and I want to provide for my daughter at the same time. I said I will give what I can and hopefully the overtime will come back and I can start giving the normal amount again. I managed to give £300 as that was all I could manage that month.

After a month or so, some overtime returned and I was able to give a little more so I raised it to £400 per month. I have also bought my daughter clothes, shoes and other bits and bobs as any parent would do.

My company has now again removed all the overtime due to this second lockdown so I thought it right that I should tell my ex straight away that again, my earnings will be going down. This time she absolutely lost the plot and went nuts at me down the phone saying that I don’t provide for my child, make no time for my child, I’m a hopeless father etc.......... none of which is true.

I love my daughter dearly, she is all I have in the world. She lives over an hours drive away from where I live and I always collect her and drop her home and I’m more than happy to do this, my ex has dropped her to me 3 times in 5 years and every time asked me for £50 fuel for doing so (which I refused). I make sure that I have at least 2 weekends off per month so I can have her and spend time with her. If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work. I honestly do the best I can so I find it very hurtful when I get told that I’m a hopeless father and I don’t provide. I don’t think that’s the case at all. I may be wrong, who knows.

The other thing that has annoyed me hugely is that she borrowed a hefty (to me at least) amount of money from me and when I mentioned this to her the other day (she’s owed to me for over 2 years), she says that because I have been giving less maintenance, then I can basically go and whistle for my money which I think is wrong.

The maintenance that I give her was worked out using the CMS calculator but we haven’t involved the CMS but I have told her that I now want to go down this route as I am sick of being told I’m not giving enough so at least this way, there can be no dispute. She has told me that she doesn’t want me to do this though. Don’t know why as surely it won’t affect her.

She is always telling me how she has no money yet she refuses to look for work, has a partner that works, has another child (who she gets maintenance for also). Surely if you’re that hard up for money, you’d do everything you could to find a part time job?Maybe that’s just me?!

I could understand her being angry with me if I was giving her a pittance and driving around in a lovely car, living in a big house and wearing fancy clothes etc........ but I have none of that. Yes I’m really into my cars but I haven’t had anything nice for quite some time but that is literally my only vice. My current car is worth about £1500 tops.

I’m very sorry, I’ve been rambling (more getting things off my chest I guess). I guess the question I’m asking is, am I really in the wrong to adjust the amount of maintenance I give considering I’m now earning considerably less money? I fully intend to pay the normal amount once my earnings go back up so I’m not looking to get away with not paying it, I’m not that kind of person.

Thanks very much for taking the time to read.

@Dddaddy

Go to the cms

Get a court order for contact.

Exactly this.

[quote MessAllOver]@LouJ85.

I agree, the divorce point is not relevant to the OP. I was just replying to the pp above.

For starters, it doesn't sound like the OP was ever married to his ex. Musing on that point...if there is one surer route into poverty than divorce, it's being an unmarried mother whose relationship breaks down.

But back to the OP. He sounds like a good enough dad by our low standards for dads. He pays a fair whack of maintenance and shows some interest in his child's life. Albeit it has to be convenient for him and fit around his work:

If I finish work on a Friday at a reasonable time, I’ll go and pick her up for the weekend. If I’m off during the week, I’ll drive all the way down to where she is to pick her up from school and take her to the park and out for some dinner then get her back home and drive home again. If she has a school play or sports day or whatever, I’ll go there, watch her and then go to work.

Mum is still on duty as "default", though, while dad makes (and keeps most of) the cash.

Then the OP cuts maintenance without much warning and, surprise, surprise, that's likely to cause financial difficulties for mum. Which will be harmful for his daughter.

His solution? Mum should get a job. Fair enough, you might think, and you'd probably be right. Even though she has the child 6/7 of the time, she should contribute financially as well. Except there's another child whose age we don't know (are they school age?) and no explanation of whether there are school-hours only jobs which mum could get. Or, failing that, whether there is good reliable wrap-around childcare available at an affordable cost for both children so mum can work full-time. Because mum, unlike dad, doesn't have a babysitter on standby 24/7.

It does strike me that the OP is being a little unreasonable here. It's all very well carping at his lazy, greedy ex and bigging up how much he likes to spend time with his child, but she does most of the day-to-day caring and we have no information about whether she could sensibly get a job or not. Especially, as has been pointed out above, since she will get no help with childcare costs from the OP.[/quote]
I genuinely don't understand what he would have to do above and beyond what's he's doing, to be upgraded from just better than a shit dad, to a good one? I honestly don't get it. It seems he's doing a lot to me.

@LouJ85.

I completely agree with you. It is possible...but extremely hard. And we're not all troopers and heroes.

But please let's not pretend that it's not a lot easier for the one who doesn't have to cover sick days, or run to pick up from school or deal with childcare falling through. Who can stay late and put the overtime in and work evenings and weekends. Who can then go home and doesn't have to make dinner for everyone, sort homework and school things for the next day, do bedtime and bath-time.

The OP can work the hours he does because his ex facilitates him. If she was run down by a bus and he had to have his DD full-time, life would be a lot, lot more difficult for him.

Mum is still on duty as "default", though, while dad makes (and keeps most of) the cash.

Again, I don't understand the issue here. It stands to reason that the resident parent is "on duty" by default because that's the chosen resident home for the child. The child can't physically be in 2 places at once?! So whoever is agreed as resident parent ends up being that person. But it can't ever be both of them unless they decide to live together again, just for the sake of equity and 'fairness' in childcare .. doesn't seem like a very healthy solution to me!

And Dad makes and keeps most of the cash he has earned from his job in the same way I do, whilst simultaneously raising my child. Because as I said before, that's a perk of working your arse for a good career, whether you're mum or dad.

[quote MessAllOver]@LouJ85.

I completely agree with you. It is possible...but extremely hard. And we're not all troopers and heroes.

But please let's not pretend that it's not a lot easier for the one who doesn't have to cover sick days, or run to pick up from school or deal with childcare falling through. Who can stay late and put the overtime in and work evenings and weekends. Who can then go home and doesn't have to make dinner for everyone, sort homework and school things for the next day, do bedtime and bath-time.

The OP can work the hours he does because his ex facilitates him. If she was run down by a bus and he had to have his DD full-time, life would be a lot, lot more difficult for him.[/quote]
Your middle paragraph- I did ALL this and more. For years. It was exhausting. But I'm a driven person and nothing would make me give up on my career dreams. So I did both; as best I could. It's paying off now.

@Waxonwaxoff0

I highly doubt his ex is having to make up the "shortfall" if she normally gets £500pm. I get that and it's more than enough, what if OP was only working a minimum wage job? His ex would have to manage on a lot less.

Exactly I think that’s what posters meant in regards to she is lucky! OP cannot be that unreasonable if they are not having to go through CMS already!

I genuinely don't understand what he would have to do above and beyond what's he's doing, to be upgraded from just better than a shit dad, to a good one? I honestly don't get it. It seems he's doing a lot to me.

I could think of a few things, including prioritising paying a consistent amount of maintenance.

Also, if he really does want his ex to get a job (rather than it just being an easy barb to throw at her), he could have a practical discussion with her about how he can help facilitate this, whether by contributing to childcare costs or cutting his hours to do school pick-ups some days. Yes, he's not required to do this, but it would be in his daughter's interests.

I did ALL this and more. For years. It was exhausting. But I'm a driven person and nothing would make me give up on my career dreams. So I did both; as best I could. It's paying off now.

Yes, I know you did. And, despite arguing with you, I think you're fantastic .

But we can't all be fantastic...Some people are just average, or have lost their confidence, or are so bogged down in the drudgery of everyday life and raising children that they might need a little more help to understand the options available to them. Maybe the OP's ex falls into that category. Maybe she can't see how she can make the logistics work while parenting two small children.

I could think of a few things, including prioritising paying a consistent amount of maintenance.

There's a global pandemic that has affected numerous people's incomes across the country, he very clearly mentions that as a reason for the changeable payments. He is not immune to the effects of Covid on income and livelihood anymore than the next person is.

@MessAllOver

I did ALL this and more. For years. It was exhausting. But I'm a driven person and nothing would make me give up on my career dreams. So I did both; as best I could. It's paying off now.

Yes, I know you did. And, despite arguing with you, I think you're fantastic .

But we can't all be fantastic...Some people are just average, or have lost their confidence, or are so bogged down in the drudgery of everyday life and raising children that they might need a little more help to understand the options available to them. Maybe the OP's ex falls into that category. Maybe she can't see how she can make the logistics work while parenting two small children.

Maybe that's true of the OP's ex. But she needs to take personal responsibility for turning that around and seeking the help she needs, if that's the case. In no way would I ever in a million years see it as my ex partner's responsibility to sort out my career and income prospects - I'm my own person, that's on me and no one else. My ex has obligations to my daughter, not to me. So again, although you may be right about his ex, that isn't his problem to fix.

I think you’re rude. Who are you to decide he’s a Disney dad WithoutATtrace? What a bitchy comment...something that I’d expect from someone who’s possibly had to fight for money! With respect most kids automatically stay with mum and there are dads who would be perfectly amazing just like mum who are basically screwed over. This guy is working overtime and travelling over an hour to see his daughter even if he can’t keep her overnight. He’s lent money on top of CSA to his ex, he’s there for plays etc. You just sound like a man hating, bitter person. It’s really sad cos it sounds like he’s just going through a crap time like many and being honest.

although you may be right about his ex, that isn't his problem to fix.

It is his problem if it starts to affect his daughter negatively and leads to her living in a financially unstable home.

Everything in your post about what a great guy you are and what a greedy b*tch you think she is, is irrelevant. Go via CMS if you have issues.

@MessAllOver

although you may be right about his ex, that isn't his problem to fix.

It is his problem if it starts to affect his daughter negatively and leads to her living in a financially unstable home.

Well we shall agree to disagree then, as I honestly don't agree at all that it is ever an ex partner's responsibility to support the parent once they are separated, beyond the financial obligations. There's a number of times I've been poorly and unable to meet my ex at the agreed half way point for contact with his daughter and asked if he would travel the full way to get her, to be met with "not my problem you're ill". And to be fair, he's right, it's not! So in that vein, I don't expect support from him in a personal sense - we aren't together, he has remarried, why would he support me? He supports his daughter in accordance with the legally obligated amount and he sees her regularly, beyond that, the life I choose to live and how that ultimately impacts my daughter - my choices, therefore my issue to deal with. No one forced me to go to uni to better myself, building up a student loan debt in the process - I chose that as I knew longer term it would pay off for me and my child. I do honestly think a lot of women fall into the "victim' mentality when a relationship breaks down and their "left" with their kids for the majority of the time. I just chose to never see myself as such.

I cannot fathom how anyone could consider £500 maintenance low for a 5yo. On the basis that mum should contribute too, even if 50% of what he contributed for the sake of not vei g to work as much (not that I agree with it), that's £750 a month. My kids never cost that much at that age and they had it quite good.

Unless OP works FT and earns too much to claim UC for childcare support, than I think she should consider herself lucky that OP is able to pay even £400.

@dontdisturbmenow

I cannot fathom how anyone could consider £500 maintenance low for a 5yo. On the basis that mum should contribute too, even if 50% of what he contributed for the sake of not vei g to work as much (not that I agree with it), that's £750 a month. My kids never cost that much at that age and they had it quite good.

Unless OP works FT and earns too much to claim UC for childcare support, than I think she should consider herself lucky that OP is able to pay even £400.

No amount any man could ever pay would be deemed enough by some posters.

He could be paying £2k a month and having the kids multiple days a week you'd still get posters saying 'pfff do you really think it only costs £2,000 a month to raise a child OP?'

@LouJ85. I think a lot of people take your ex's attitude. But they're not good parents. As a good parent, you realise that you have to support the other parent as much as you reasonably can, even if you're separated. That doesn't mean writing them a blank cheque or letting them run your life. But it does mean being flexible and helpful with each other where you might reasonably be expected to do so. In helping each other to be better parents, you are ultimately helping the child.

There's a number of times I've been poorly and unable to meet my ex at the agreed half way point for contact with his daughter and asked if he would travel the full way to get her, to be met with "not my problem you're ill". And to be fair, he's right, it's not!

Did contact just not happen then? Did he let his child down to prove a point? Or did he force you to travel anyway? It would have been his problem if you'd been so ill you'd ended up in hospital, wouldn't it? Because if you couldn't care for the child, he'd have to step up and do it himself.

I can only comment from my experience. I left my very wealthy ex because I simply couldn't take any more. I suffered for years under his control. And not just "low key" stuff.
He applied to the Courts for full custody of our boys who were just 3 and 6 at the time. It was purely to exact his revenge on me for leaving. Courts awarded 50/50 - apparently suggestions of being an abusive husband do not make a bad father. Zero maintenance payable. He takes CB for one son even though he has to pay it back aa earns way in excess of £100k pa.
I work ft to make ends meet but seven years on we are still in small privately rented while he remains in the exec five-bed marital home. My settlement was a joke (assets hidden etc) and nowhere near enough for me to buy.
He is now applying for further custody so I'd get to see the kids just EOW. He uses the fact that he shops at Waitrose, has four sports cars, four en suites and a hot tub etc vs the fact that we only have one loo here and shop at Aldi constantly to play against me re the kids who are now old enough to be impressed by that difference in lifestyle.

@YarToTheNar.

No amount any man could ever pay would be deemed enough by some posters.

No, there's definitely an upper limit .

Have a look at what a 24/7 nanny costs. I think a reasonable amount would definitely be capped at half of that!

YANBU OP you are paying more than your fair share. Some women are just downright greedy and expect the world to be handed to them on a golden plate. Not wishing this on you but your ex would get a shock if you were ever made unemployed and were only obliged to pay £5 a week!

Go through CMS and only give her what she’s entitled to, no more. Any extra you would have given just spend on your daughter when she’s in your care.

From what I read Ex has another child and a partner
Therefore it’s possible the reason she is not working is more due to the age and cost of the second child which is nothing to do with OP in my opinion

Not wishing this on you but your ex would get a shock if you were ever made unemployed and were only obliged to pay £5 a week!

You mean she'd be shocked if she was expected both to do 6/7 of the childcare and fund almost 100% of the costs. I wonder why .

@Orinoco82

Wow, how rude are you?

I’m not a ‘Disney Dad’ as you call me, I honestly do the best I can.

As for my debts, they are my debts and I am paying them off. I never said they were to do with my ex.

I’m not moaning about paying maintenance and I’m happy to pay what I need to pay.

I asked for people’s opinions, not to be insulted so you can sod off with your nasty comments.

You’re obviously are someone just like my ex who believes that the world revolves around them.

Ignore comments like that. Some people think mums can do no wrong and dads are all crap when we are all human so inevitably there are rubbish mums and rubbish dads, excellent mums and excellent dads, and lots of inbetween. FWIW nothing you said made me think you're a Disney Dad. What probably got this person's back up is the comments about your ex not looking for work etc which, though irritating, unfortunately doesn't factor in. There can be many reasons you may not be aware of and even if no good ones, you still have your responsibilities anyway. But then you didnt suggest any of that is why you've cut payments

@MessAllOver that’s my point. Her situation could be a lot worse so she should be grateful the OP is an involved father who has regular contact with his child and pays above and beyond what he is obliged to pay. Honestly, some people are just never happy.

@im5050 Maybe. That's why I asked how old all of her children are?