so we are now arresting people NOW Shocking

[Meadow1203]

I thought this was wind up but sadly it is true. A 73 year old retired nurse has been arrested and put in handcuffs because she took her own mother out of a care home. She has not had proper contact for 9 months and her poor 97 year old mum was ailing, she wanted to bring her home to care for her. Wow just wow how have we come to this.

Yes how lovely these brave people who don't care if they get it thinking they will pop off quietly in their sleep

I think you are forgetting these are very elderly people who have lived a long life, lived through the WW2, may have fought many illnesses off, already lost many members of their family and feeling pragmatic about this whole situation because they don’t want to spend their possibly last year not seeing their loved ones.

I think your ‘lovely brave people’ is quite loaded and sneery. And unnecessary.

Care homes should have used effective infection control measures, the owners should have ensured that was in place. Why didn't they?

Because there was a national shortage of ppe, even the NHS didn’t have enough. You and I have argued this point before and I’m not going there again. Life’s too short.

@Nicknacky

VinylDetective The vast majority of those 25,000 will have been care home residents in the first place so were being discharged back to where they came from. So the families will have known where they were going and will have been consulted at some point.

And you know this how? That’s a pretty massive assumption.

How do I know what?

@derxa

This family's actions may have questionable but they have highlighted problems in this country's treatment of old people.

I really agree with this

It's kind of the same as a child being in care. There's all types of complexities and legalities. Parents can't just turn up and take the child home. Legal processes have to be followed and assessment of the parents situation and the child's needs. The same goes for our older relatives in care homes. If they have no capacity to make their own decisions then a range of professionals and the family make decisions in their best interests. Sometimes families don't agree. But You cant just turn up and bundle Granny into your car .... There has to be assessment of her needs, assessment of your ability to meet her needs, and then due legal processes have to be followed.

The family are giving a very skewered version of events. They were allowed to see their relative but asked to adhere to the safety measures that we all have to. The family didn't do this. They pushed past protective screens to give her a hug and flowers then bundled her into a car, meaning the police had to be called as this is a very vulnerable lady .

I get where the family are coming from but they have escalated this situation themselves and probably further isolated themselves from their loved one now.

I do agree there should be attempts made to have one family as a keyworker but again there are processes that have to be followed

'Because there was a national shortage of ppe, even the NHS didn’t have enough'

Ah. A bit like tests then? So they should've been kept them all in acute settings for months until enough tests and ppe became available. Great plan 🙄. Alternatively the homes involved could have isolated the patients discharged and ensured strict barrier nursing was inplace. Maybe one thing to come from this is care home owners will ensure they have a stockpile of aprons and gloves etc and their staff are all trained in infection control.

'You and I have argued this point before and I’m not going there again. Life’s too short'

Or, you know I'm right.

No, @GetOffYourHighHorse, because I know I’m right.

And, as for you @Nicknacky, I quoted your assumption, it’s difficult to see how you could possibly not know what I meant so please stop with the faux naïveté.

I made two points in my post, I’m not sure which one you were addressing. I’m not psychic or naive🤷‍♀️.

VinylDetective

@Nicknacky

I made two points in my post, I’m not sure which one you were addressing. I’m not psychic or naive🤷‍♀️.

You made one point which was that the vast majority of those 25,000 patients would have been admitted to hospital from a care home. Clearly a massive - and probably erroneous - assumption. Unless, of course, you have some evidence.

VinylDetective I’m guilty of using my common sense, to be honest.

Unless you have any evidence at all that 25,000 grannies and grandads are getting forced into care homes for no reason at all?

And I made two points in my post. You clearly didn’t read it as that.

In other words making assumptions on no evidence whatsoever.

VinylDetective So where is your proof that ANY elderly person has been “shipped out” of hospital to care homes with out relatives knowing?

Never mind 25,000 of them, just show me proof of one situation?

It makes no sense for anyone to do that. Care homes are businesses and need paid and the local authorities aren’t just going to place them there unless absolutely necessary.

But again. I’m using common sense.

Even if people as an individual don’t care if they get it then irrespective of their age they need to remember that this isn’t just about us an an individual it’s about the wider community and just because they don’t care if they die doesn’t mean everyone else they may infect feels the same

But the wider community aren’t really affected by this virus.
And most of the elderly I know have had this virus already and come through the other end.

Apart from one family who never came out of the first lockdown I don’t know anyone regardless of their age who actually is that bothered about this virus.
You only have to take a drive to see everyone is out and about

Then they're selfish idiots.

It kills people.

It leaves people with long term, life changing health issues.

Just because you (the generic you) don't know anyone affected like this, doesn't mean it doesn't happen. I've never met anyone from Alaska (that I know of), doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

The utter stupidity of people putting their own needs before other people's is depressing

If you can’t be a selfish idiot in the last few months of your life, you never can. Selfish has to be the most over used word on. MN. I’d love £1 for every time I’ve read it since March.

I'm not talking about people in the last months of their lives, I'm talking about people determining that because they don't know anyone who's had a very negative experience of Covid, their desire to do what they want should trump other people's right to life.

And yes, that is selfish - perhaps the reason the word is overused is that this awful situation has exposed that element of people. Sad really.

YABU

The elderly lady is not the property of her daughter. When someone lacks capacity, their family don’t automatically get to take over- for good reason. My understanding is that the family do not have power of attorney, so have no legal rights to decide where she lives or about her care. Given that, the home would be negligent in allowing her daughter to take her out of the home without consent of whoever has guardianship (suspect social work)- they have a duty of care to their resident.

It is clearly stated the reason she was arrested was for suspected assault of a careworker. Frankly, there is no excuse. The whole video and way it was played out was absolutely sensationalised for maximum effect. They should be ashamed of themselves, really- no need for such behaviour. In all likelihood all they will have done is cause distress to their mother/grandmother, the staff caring fit her and quite possibly other residents in the home.

If the family wanted to take over the care, there is a process to go through to make sure it was safe and appropriate for them to take their relative home. Just wanting to take her home does not mean they have the right to do so, they have to be able to meet her needs.

I think it is right that the family would need to demonstrate that they could meet her care needs (being an ex-nurse doesn’t automatically mean she has the skills- and one person can’t provide care 24/7 even if she did). For example, do the family have complete knowledge of the medical, nursing and personal care she requires? Can they demonstrate their competence to do all that is required? Do the family have suitable accommodation? Did they have the equipment needed? The home and the legal guardian would be obliged to ensure that the answer to all of those things was “yes” before even considering allowing this elderly lady to be removed from her nursing home.

@ineedsun

I'm not talking about people in the last months of their lives, I'm talking about people determining that because they don't know anyone who's had a very negative experience of Covid, their desire to do what they want should trump other people's right to life.

And yes, that is selfish - perhaps the reason the word is overused is that this awful situation has exposed that element of people. Sad really.

Given that this thread is about people in care homes, we’re talking about old people with very finite lifespans. Many of whom are spending their precious very few last days incarcerated and unable to see their families. I totally understand that they’d rather take the risk, I’d be exactly the same.

VinylDetective No examples for me yet? I thought not.

I think the main person is this is the elderly person and what’s best for them. Love means being selfless. Not selfish.

@VinylDetective

We're talking about family members taking things into their own hands and putting vulnerable people at risk because their desire for a hug trumps other people's right to life.

I’m talking about old people with very finite lifespans being deprived of contact with their nearest and dearest to which they don’t consent. It’s absolute cruelty. Given the choice, I’d put money on most of those “vulnerable people” preferring to see their families to an extra few months of life. Living is more than not just being dead.

As I’ve already said, I’m so grateful my parents are dead. If this had happened when they were alive it would have broken their hearts and mine.

No. We have the Alzheimer’s Society’s word in it. Or are they lying too?

The Alzheimer's Society haven't claimed any knowledge of this case.

@Byallmeans

MoonJelly you have no idea what your talking about. You should educate yourself. I’m embarrassed for you.

Always the reaction of people who can't actually quote anything concrete in support of their argument. Save your embarrassment for yourself.