so we are now arresting people NOW Shocking

[Meadow1203]

I thought this was wind up but sadly it is true. A 73 year old retired nurse has been arrested and put in handcuffs because she took her own mother out of a care home. She has not had proper contact for 9 months and her poor 97 year old mum was ailing, she wanted to bring her home to care for her. Wow just wow how have we come to this.

@Byallmeans

MoonJelly you have no idea what your talking about. You should educate yourself. I’m embarrassed for you.

Said the pot.

@MoodieMare

So what do we take away from all this then? Do we as a society, jump up and down at this news story and scandal, say how disgusting it all is, then quietly go on with our lives next week? That's generally the way it goes. Panorama programmes, news headlines..... Public outcry....... A promise from an official body to change things...... All goes quiet....... Nothing changes. I'm aware, as are so many of my colleagues what an impact not seeing family has for our residents, we're well aware of it. We report it to the HCPs that deal with other areas of our residents health, we agree with the family members that it's hard and that the government have had a whole summer to work out and invest in ways to allow visitors without too much extra risk. We talk amongst ourselves how X or Y is sad today because there's been a family birth and they are excluded, and how if weekly testing and PPE is enough for the staff this could be extended to a family member of each resident, how we could set aside an area that could be for visiting and sanitised afterwards (we're sure we'll find the time somewhere!) We sit with residents and an iPad to enable them to have some contact. We open a window and physically support someone to stand and have a conversation with someone. We call a family member when the nurse has been to administer the medication to make someone's end of life as comfortable as possible and explain to them gently that they are now allowed to visit, and why. We ask them to leave the room, to wait outside the home while we administer personal care. We confirm to them if they're there that yes, this really is it. Or we make the call to them. We make a video call with a doctor to confirm someone has died and then usher undertakers in through a backdoor with all others away in a different room because they look like something out of 'Contagion' and frankly a bit scary. We worry that visitors we admit to the home now won't follow the best practice, putting everyone at risk because we've read and seen how people don't like masks, how they don't believe in it all, how they don't want to follow the rules because it doesn't suit them. And know that if it does get into our home, despite how careful we've been, we'll be held entirely responsible. Society will blame us as care workers. We discuss how we are being blamed for the rules being in place, even though none of this is our doing. And whichever way things go, we'll be blamed regardless. Then we go home to our own families and wonder why.

You're only being blamed by vicious and nasty people who jump onto every clickbait argument in the gutter press and run with it.

The slightly more nuanced among us know that you all go and above and beyond and always have.

You know you can catch it twice

You know people don’t care

@Oliversmumsarmy

You know you can catch it twice

You know people don’t care

What?

People don't care about infecting their elderly and vulnerable relatives and every other resident in the setting?

@Nottherealslimshady

She was arrested for assault of a care worker. Should we all be able to take any of our relatives out of their medical care setting when it suits us? How are everybody elses relatives in that care home going to feel if she's brought covid in? It was irresponsible and selfish.

Yes. We should.

@TheSeedsOfADream

Thank you

@CherryPavlova

It is just guidance - as The Guardian says, local Directors of Public Health can over-ride it, and decide on no visiting in their area; and they are accountable to no one!

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/07/care-homes-they-dont-put-loneliness-on-death-certificates-but-it-is-a-killer

Also, as one care home manager says, it’s easier for managers to say no visitors, because there’s no work in it, compared to doing risk assessments and implementing safety measures.

Imo, deaths in care homes from Covid is so politically sensitive for the government, they have written this guidance where preventing Covid is the top priority - it doesn’t matter if deaths are up from non Covid causes like lack of access to GPs, no hospital treatment for other conditions (see the Amnesty International report), no independent oversight of care (whether by the CQC or families) or loneliness?

And this:

www.theguardian.com/world/2020/nov/08/inseparable-for-44-years-the-couple-banned-from-touching-because-of-covid

Deaths in care homes has been a problem in a lot of countries. I will avoid going into one if I can when very old. All my elderly neighbours are still at home by the way. only 1 in 5 people ever need a care home. Neighbour 85 lives alone. Across street - nearly 80 lives along. Never to him the granny has always lived with the son and lives at home. Next to them a couple - man is about 82, wife not sure probably similar. Other side of me a couple, both about 80. Next to them a lady doctor who is 90 and her husband or about the same age. In my 50s I feel like a youngster other than the neighbours 2 up as lady of 90 moved to a cottage on her son's land so there is a younger family - NHS doctor and nurse spouse and children who are not old. My only point was that lots of old people never end up in care homes which is why who pays for them is difficult and the previous measures to change the law failed. Most people know they won't need one.

Since people lived together in large numbers and from boarding schools to the army to university spread of infection has always been faster in those environments, perhaps because that s not a natural way to live. For 100,000 years + our ancestors lived in very small groups. I think they even had 5000 acres per person before our population started exploding like rabbits across this planet.

People don't care about infecting their elderly and vulnerable relatives and every other resident in the setting

No. The other way round. The elderly people I know. (Including those in a care home) don’t care about getting this disease because it negatively impacts their lives so much that those that haven’t had it yet, and those that have are weighing up if we carry on with lock downs and restrictions that could be for the rest of their lives whether just to check out now than live in this purgatory

[quote DarkMintChocolate]**@CherryPavlova

It is just guidance - as The Guardian says, local Directors of Public Health can over-ride it, and decide on no visiting in their area; and they are accountable to no one!

www.theguardian.com/society/2020/nov/07/care-homes-they-dont-put-loneliness-on-death-certificates-but-it-is-a-killer

Also, as one care home manager says, it’s easier for managers to say no visitors, because there’s no work in it, compared to doing risk assessments and implementing safety measures.

Imo, deaths in care homes from Covid is so politically sensitive for the government, they have written this guidance where preventing Covid is the top priority - it doesn’t matter if deaths are up from non Covid causes like lack of access to GPs, no hospital treatment for other conditions (see the Amnesty International report), no independent oversight of care (whether by the CQC or families) or loneliness?[/quote]
Yes it’s guidance but at the moment very few local directors of PH are overruling it.
The regulatory framework means whilst guidance isn’t enforceable, any providers of health and social care must take account of the guidance and that is enforceable. Section 9(3) I think says something like providers should use nationally recognised evidence-based guidance when designing, delivering and reviewing care.

If care homes are acting unilaterally and exceeding the guidance, complain to the Commission and local authority.

The family in question didnt plan to take her home. Was an impulse thing they just grabbed her and ran. Of course the care home was worried. If they had made a plan for home care and planned how to do that and had informed staff and made a date for her to leave it might have been a different story.

Just seen the daughter on This morning ranting about masks. it's not difficult to see how they have got into a stand off with the care home.

The family in question didnt plan to take her home. Was an impulse thing they just grabbed her and ran. Of course the care home was worried. If they had made a plan for home care and planned how to do that and had informed staff and made a date for her to leave it might have been a different story

My understanding is that they have tried to do that but were stopped.

DarkMintChocolate

I completely agree. And there is no accessible data on which care homes are refusing visitors.

OP you say The woman is retired nurse and can take care of her needs. You do NOT actually know that. That would have to be fully assessed by Social Workers. Families do not always know what is best for their loved ones as they are driven by emotion such as anger, worry, guilt . The resident may have specific needs that require a high level of care that can't be met by her 76 year old daughter. She had no right to assault the staff. Staff were obligated to stop her taking her mother as the mother is legally detained and there is a proper legal process to go through.

You just cannot put your loved one in a nursing home and then change your mind , turn up and bundle them into your car with no agreement or plan for their care. How horrific for their loved one!

Care homes and staff are working right through this pandemic and trying to keep Covid out. Covid as we know is most serious for older people and can rip through a home like wildfire. So of course they cannot let visitors in. That would be deadly , really deadly to a lot of residents.

The family seem a little unhinged tbh. Anti maskers, anti care home staff, anti law.

They need to take a step back and calm down .

@Oliversmumsarmy

The family in question didnt plan to take her home. Was an impulse thing they just grabbed her and ran. Of course the care home was worried. If they had made a plan for home care and planned how to do that and had informed staff and made a date for her to leave it might have been a different story

My understanding is that they have tried to do that but were stopped.

They don't seem to understand themselves what they have and haven't done if you read all their interviews and watch all their TV appearances this week. The daughter and granddaughter contradict themselves to the point of not even seeming to know when they had last seen the grandmother and what steps they had taken to officially have her released into their care.

Care homes and staff are working right through this pandemic and trying to keep Covid out. Covid as we know is most serious for older people and can rip through a home like wildfire. So of course they cannot let visitors in. That would be deadly , really deadly to a lot of residents

Yet care home staff are in and out every day, seeing their own families, doing shopping ect..

I’ve read the Alzheimer’s Society article and I agree that close family members should be given key worker status.

We need to remember - these people are not in a jail. They have a human right to be able to spend time with their family.

They really didnt come across well in that interview at all. I was much more onboard with them before I saw them ranting about covid being exaggerated.

@Oliversmumsarmy

People don't care about infecting their elderly and vulnerable relatives and every other resident in the setting

No. The other way round. The elderly people I know. (Including those in a care home) don’t care about getting this disease because it negatively impacts their lives so much that those that haven’t had it yet, and those that have are weighing up if we carry on with lock downs and restrictions that could be for the rest of their lives whether just to check out now than live in this purgatory

By virtue of the type of people these places support, many don't have the mental capacity to make that decision. They don't know what covid is, let alone whether they care about catching it.

The staff's role is to keep them safe from harm and there are legal safeguards to help with that, so that their needs are paramount rather than anyone else's who might have their own agenda.

What possible benefit do you think it would be to the staff to keep family apart from their residents?

What possible benefit do you think it would be to the staff to keep family apart from their residents?

It’s not the staff that decide to keep visitors off it’s the management of the home. It’s much more easier to have a No visitors at all COVID policy than doing risk as assessments.

It’s down to the individual service provider.

I would imagine the big charities such as Alzheimer’s Society and One dementia voice know much more about this than MN surfers and this is why they are campaigning at the moment to change this.

By virtue of the type of people these places support, many don't have the mental capacity to make that decision. They don't know what covid is, let alone whether they care about catching it

Dmil and the residents at her care home have already had Covid.
You do realise that people can be in these facilities because of physical need. There is nothing wrong with their mind. They know perfectly well what is going on.

Even Dmil has times of clarity where she wishes to die as she cannot see anything to live for.

Even the elderly people I know who aren’t in a care home aren’t bothered about this virus.

As far as they are concerned they have either already had it or they aren’t bothered about getting it. It is a chance they are willing to take. They want to go out for coffee or a drink with friends. They want to browse the shops or go out for the day. They want to see their children, gc, sisters and brothers and just get on with their life. They want to go on holiday and get some winter sun.

The last thing they want is for everyone (them included) to be on their own not able to go out and live their lives

Even if people as an individual don’t care if they get it then irrespective of their age they need to remember that this isn’t just about us an an individual it’s about the wider community and just because they don’t care if they die doesn’t mean everyone else they may infect feels the same