so we are now arresting people NOW Shocking

[Meadow1203]

I thought this was wind up but sadly it is true. A 73 year old retired nurse has been arrested and put in handcuffs because she took her own mother out of a care home. She has not had proper contact for 9 months and her poor 97 year old mum was ailing, she wanted to bring her home to care for her. Wow just wow how have we come to this.

Ahh. I did think there was more to the story. Makes sense now that this was not merely the family having made decision to put granny into the care home and then decide to remove her because they can care for her better home home. Was quite bizarre as I know people who have taken their elderly parents back home as their work is now permanently WFH and they can now care for their parents whereas previously covid they could not balance work outside of their home and care needed for their elderly parents. My friends did not simply show up to take them, there was a process to go through

@Oliversmumsarmy

By virtue of the type of people these places support, many don't have the mental capacity to make that decision. They don't know what covid is, let alone whether they care about catching it

Dmil and the residents at her care home have already had Covid.
You do realise that people can be in these facilities because of physical need. There is nothing wrong with their mind. They know perfectly well what is going on.

Even Dmil has times of clarity where she wishes to die as she cannot see anything to live for.

Your views are understandably based on your own personal connections but it's important that people in decision making positions are able to be more objective and have the interests, not just of those who have care needs for physical reasons or who have mental capacity but everyone.

It is not OK for the wishes of one persons family to put all other residents at risk. The very notion that 'they've had it anyway and don't care about avoiding it' is abhorrent. If that is a decision which affects only that person and they have the capacity to make that decision, fair enough, but in this situation that's not the case. Your (generic - not your personally) desire to hug your mum does not trump someone else's right to life.

Care home staff are working hard to keep their residents safe and well, there are homes who have managed to keep everyone safe from covid through determination, resisting pressure from outside agencies to admit covid positive patients, and working alongside families to keep their residents safe.

@Sirzy

Even if people as an individual don’t care if they get it then irrespective of their age they need to remember that this isn’t just about us an an individual it’s about the wider community and just because they don’t care if they die doesn’t mean everyone else they may infect feels the same

Surzy rather than a blanket ban or policy there needs to be wider discussions of the health and mental implications of not allowing family contact.

I’m not talking about residents feeling down or getting a bit depressed because they can’t see their family. I’m talking about a sharp decline in mental capacity and physicality. Much sharper than one would expect.

Whilst I understand the care homes are under great stress to keep the location ‘COVID free’ morecan be done. Great pains are taken so the residents dont catch COVID but whilst they use these methods many residents are dying much more quickly because of them. They are ‘throwing the baby out with the bath water’ so to speak.

I don’t think people realise how vital it is for these residents health to maintain contact with family members. And unfortunately Skype or window visits just don’t cut it

I fully agree that now we have the ability to do mass testing that regular testing for one or two loved ones per resident should be introduced so that safe visits can be carried out.

My issue was with the “well I don’t care if I die” attitude because many others do care and you can’t make that decision for yourself without putting others at risk

You just cannot put your loved one in a nursing home and then change your mind , turn up and bundle them into your car with no agreement or plan for their care. How horrific for their loved one!

Except they didn’t put her in a nursing home. She ended up there when old people were shipped out of hospital into care homes en masse without testing. Nobody gave a shit about protecting care home residents then, when they didn’t even have adequate ppe.

@VinylDetective

You just cannot put your loved one in a nursing home and then change your mind , turn up and bundle them into your car with no agreement or plan for their care. How horrific for their loved one!

Except they didn’t put her in a nursing home. She ended up there when old people were shipped out of hospital into care homes en masse without testing. Nobody gave a shit about protecting care home residents then, when they didn’t even have adequate ppe.

She was in the care home, ended up in hospital with pneumonia, then released back to the care home because they had legal responsibility for her.

Except they didn’t put her in a nursing home. She ended up there when old people were shipped out of hospital into care homes en masse without testing. Nobody gave a shit about protecting care home residents then, when they didn’t even have adequate ppe. I don't think that is right, her daughter and granddaughter said they asked the hospital not to send her back to the home so she was obviously already in the home before her hospital stay. I'm not saying I agree with the policy of sending old people back into their care homes without tests but the point remains unless they were lying she wasn't just shipped out of hospital to a care home, she was returned ot the home where she was living.

Sorry ComOnBabyHauntMyBubble, I missed your reply which was much more concise than mine.

'Except they didn’t put her in a nursing home. She ended up there when old people were shipped out of hospital into care homes en masse without testing. Nobody gave a shit about protecting care home residents then, when they didn’t even have adequate ppe.'

She 'ended up there'? Do you seriously think folk were 'shipped out' without any consultation with patients or their family?!

Hospital staff of course 'gave a shit'. The acute setting was an equally high risk infection area so discharging those clinically ready for discharge was the right thing to do.

Care homes needed to follow basic infection prevention and control practise which is normal procedure when admitting anyone from hospital. How some managed it and some didn't will I presume become clear in an inquiry,

PatriciaPerch exactly which is why suddenly discharging this elderly lady into the 24hour care of her very emotional angry 76 year old daughter could not happen.

Just to clarify the lady was in a care home as per her families choice. She then had a period in hospital and was discharged back to the care home which legally was her home

VinylDetective Are you really so stupid that you think elderly people are admitted to hospital and then just “shipped out” to care homes with no consultation with family?

Surely no one actually thinks that?

As much as I understand the "I don't care if I get Covid and die" stance, I am of the opinion that people believe that they will get it and, if they are going to die, will slip quietly away a couple of days later. No need for nursing care, no need for observation, no pain, no intervention required. That's not what happens. And, given that there is neither the care or medical staff to facilitate this, it is a bloody selfish viewpoint.

@Nicknacky

VinylDetective Are you really so stupid that you think elderly people are admitted to hospital and then just “shipped out” to care homes with no consultation with family?

Surely no one actually thinks that?

I know it happened. Quite honestly I thought it was common knowledge. I’m questioning who’s stupid here, I definitely know who’s unnecessarily rude.

www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-older-people-care-homes-abandoned-die-amid-government-failures-during-coronavirus

@Nicknacky

VinylDetective Are you really so stupid that you think elderly people are admitted to hospital and then just “shipped out” to care homes with no consultation with family?

Surely no one actually thinks that?

I suppose it depends on the ‘consultation’ and what the health issues are.

Hospitals can along with SS force admission to a care home although it’s usually last resort.

A neighbour of mine was pressured in to going in a care home directly from hospital just at the start of the pandemic. Her family and my neighbour robustly fought it and she was allowed to stay at home with her Dh.

• I know it happened. Quite honestly I thought it was common knowledge. I’m questioning who’s stupid here, I definitely know who’s unnecessarily rude.

www.amnesty.org.uk/press-releases/uk-older-people-care-homes-abandoned-die-amid-government-failures-during-coronavirus*

I've read it. Nowhere does it say that patients were sent to care homes against their families wishes or when there were alternative care options or sending them to a care home if they previously weren't in one.

You're conflating several issues and Government failures that have absolutely nothing to do with the case this thread is about.

You seriously think 25,000 families were consulted? In the space of a couple of days? If you do, it’s most definitely not me who’s stupid.

'As much as I understand the "I don't care if I get Covid and die" stance, I am of the opinion that people believe that they will get it and, if they are going to die, will slip quietly away a couple of days later. '

Yes how lovely these brave people who don't care if they get it thinking they will pop off quietly in their sleep.

It's the horrible gasping for weeks on a rammed respiratory ward then possibly icu that doesn't appeal.

'You seriously think 25,000 families were consulted? In the space of a couple of days'

They weren't all rang by one person you know it was spread out over the country. So yes, health care professionals will indeed have liaised with the patient and family regarding discharge arrangements. You have a low opinion of HCPs if you think the welfare of their patients is not their priority.

I have a low opinion of the government that instructed the NHS to ship old people out into care homes without bothering to test them. If they couldn’t even manage that I don’t believe for a second their families were consulted.

This family's actions may have questionable but they have highlighted problems in this country's treatment of old people.

'have a low opinion of the government that instructed the NHS to ship old people out into care homes without bothering to test them. '

There wasn't the testing capacity then, it wasnt that they couldn't be arsed. The patients couldn't stay in an acute setting for ever, once fit for discharge the HCPs discharged them. They weren't 'shipped out'. Care homes should have used effective infection control measures, the owners should have ensured that was in place. Why didn't they?

VinylDetective The vast majority of those 25,000 will have been care home residents in the first place so were being discharged back to where they came from. So the families will have known where they were going and will have been consulted at some point.