Not sure about giving our cleaner a second chance - AIBU?

[Sydney88]

Hi all,

I'm really not sure what to do about the situation with my cleaner. I think we may need to let her go and find another but wanted to get some objective thoughts before deciding what to do.

YANBU - I should let her go
YABU - Keep her on

By way of background, I have had the same cleaner for about 5 years and we have always been happy with her. She comes every fortnight and stays the entire day (we pay over market rate for her time) - she cleans, does a bit of tidying, washes a few dishes from the morning and changes the beds. We recently moved from a flat to a house - the house is fairly large (right now its me and my husband and our 6 month old). We always give the house a quick tidy before she comes. But it's not a show home and we have a new baby - so there is a little bit of clutter in a few places. For instance, I have my breakfast cereals on the side of the kitchen counter - but that's by choice because its convenient for me. I may also leave a couple of baby bits here and there, as I'm using the house. I should add that we are in the process of renovating, so there are only four rooms that are in use (our bedroom, our ensuite, the play/temporary sitting room and the kitchen). The remaining bedrooms and living rooms are not in use.

So last week, my cleaner opened up to me about the fact that she is struggling with all her clients (she was really upset about it). She said that ever since COVID things have changed and she believes that people are playing mind games with her on purpose. She told me that people are leaving things arranged in a way that she doesn't know what to do. I suggested to her that people are perhaps using their homes more (since people are wfh etc) and so homes may not be as super organised as before - and for her to just ask her clients what they want her to do and for their expectations. Apparently, she has left a couple of long standing clients over this. She has also changed her style of cleaning so that she will move things to clean but move them back to exactly where originally (even if it is clear that it hasn't been arranged in that specific position like a book on the side - which makes her job take even longer).

Last week I walked into the kitchen while she was there and she starts complaining to me about the kitchen - regarding the items in the corner (i.e. the breakfast cereals and the baby's high chain table). I told her I was happy if she didn't clean that area if it is too difficult for her. She told me that this is not compatible with her new method of cleaning. I told her that I had a newborn and apologised that things are a little less organised but that I haven't really changed in the way I use my home - she strongly disagreed and she said it was not an excuse and not good enough. She also said it wasn't normal and was getting very aggressive at this point. I told her I don't organise my life around her cleaning and walked away from the situation. I was really upset at this point. Later she said that it wasn't worth her while to be making the journey to clean our house and for us to get a local cleaner. She effectively said that she had thought that we could come to an arrangement as to how I organise my home. When my DH came home from work, she was just leaving - so he struck up conversation regarding the whole thing (I had obviously called hime earlier in the day about it). She proceeded to rant about everything (and about me, the government and about other clients) but then said she was happy working for us. We said that we should all give it a think and that we would get back to her.

She has since messaged my husband to apologise for upsetting me and for being unprofessional.

I'm not sure what to do at this point. She is a very good cleaner and a nice lady. But I'm worried that she has become paranoid and unstable and wonder whether it is a good idea to keep her on. But if we let her go, I would feel terribly guilty - especially if she is losing income in these times.

To be honest it sounds like her work is slipping, and I wouldn't be confortable being told how to arrange my own home!

We are also just the two of us in a large house, with renovations going on. Our cleaner comes once a fortnight and we usually just tell him to skip certain rooms (the ones with decorating etc going on). This works fine and he just cleans the rooms we ask for - so usually the kitchen, front room, bathroom, our bedroom and hallway. He also doesn't really move stuff, he either goes round it or if it's something like some letters he'll pile them up and then go round.

If you have to make a thread about your cleaner then it's probably time to hire a new one. I wouldn't like an agressive cleaner around my baby or being told how to arrange my kitchen just so she can clean using her new method.

it speaks very ill of the character of everyone who employs a cleaner. haha well that's me told.

The whole point of hiring a cleaner is to take pressure off, not add to it. I use a cleaning service at my business premises too and even that isn't remotely the same. Our home cleaner prefers her clients to be out but everyone has had to adjust recently and she gets that and finds a way, It doesn't sound like OP's cleaner is handling it or working round the baby well, or maybe the changed location, who knows but she's not behaved like a professional and said something, choosing instead to be rude and make digs about 'other clients' and cereal boxes.

I often have a drink and chat with our cleaner when she arrives, after a few years we know one another pretty well now and she's always invited to family gatherings and so on (pre covid) and I've listened to her problems but we tidy before she arrives and stay right out of her way when she's working. There's a line. Same with my last cleaner, she changed jobs but we still send cards at Christmas and birthdays, perhaps I've just been lucky. They're sort of on a par with family but rudeness on either side, passive aggressive digs or anything resembling a domestic power struggle is not acceptable. Not everything is due to mental health struggles and we are not psychiatrists or social workers.

Our cleaner also works for one of my friends whose house is like a bombsite, dirty glasses and litter left all around the sofas, dirty dishes stacked up, clothes scattered everywhere, don't mention the bathrooms. The cleaner has to tidy for an hour before she can start to clean but if she didn't want to do it she doesn't have to. She wouldn't dream of ranting or telling her client off, she discussed different levels of service with friend and now charges for the extra time spent tidying.

This isn't you sacking her, she quit. So now treat her as a new applicant with the reference "bosses clients around and becomes aggressive and hysterical". Do you employ that person?

Also taking a whole day to clean a normal size house sounds bloody bonkers. My cleaner give ours the once over once a week for 2 hours.

We love our cleaner. We employ her through an agency but we've had the same one for a while now. Despite speaking very little English, she manages to fit around our family life very tactfully, even with us all being at home during lockdown. She even manages to pretend to love my brattish, tantruming toddler and, pre-Covid, I would regularly catch her hugging him or getting him snacks. Once I even heard the spoiled little toad demanding she get him a biscuit....soon put a stop to that. In exchange, we try to be out when she comes except for naptime and, if we happen to be at home because it's raining, move upstairs out of her way when she's cleaning downstairs and vice versa for upstairs. She sometimes casts a dismayed look over the kitchen when she arrives, but doesn't say anything for which I am eternally grateful. I do the most gruesome stuff before she arrives, though, as there are some things I don't think cleaners should be expected to clean.

There's been a few times where she hasn't done a great job and a few times I've told her to leave early since she's obviously been tired or not feeling great. I'd never ever consider getting rid of her for that because she's such an easy-going person to have around the house. You can't put a price on that and it's definitely worth having to give the bathroom a second clean sometimes or force DH to iron his own shirts for a change.

She's clearly struggling with her mental health, and after 5 years I would feel obliged to at least try to ask her about that and suggest she gets help. But you're right to resist having to have your house arranged 'her way' and if she insists on that, you will need someone else.

Why darling, the help are giving you backchat?
Dismiss them and find yourself a new domestic assistant.

She told me that this is not compatible with her new method of cleaning. I told her that I had a newborn and apologised that things are a little less organised but that I haven't really changed in the way I use my home - she strongly disagreed and she said it was not an excuse and not good enough. She also said it wasn't normal and was getting very aggressive at this point.

That would be enough for me to show her the door, frankly. I wouldn't give anyone unrelated second chances after saying something like that. There are plenty other good cleaners around who'd want the job and wouldn't harangue OP in her own home! They wouldn't take all day (6-7 hours!) to do a decent clean either.

@LonelyFromCorona

What is with the attitude? There are thousands of people working as cleaners for private households. If no one paid for a cleaner, how would they be earning their living?
It's a thriving part of the economy. There is nothing wrong with paying someone to come in and clean.

The cleaners job is to do just that. Not to come in and rebuke you for how you organise and use your home. If they wont do their job and are actually making life harder for you then yes, you would dismiss them.

The lower middle classes have cleaners and well as the upper middle and upper classes. It's not just a rich person thing. Get over yourself.

@LonelyFromCorona
Did you read what the cleaner said? I’d lose my job if I went around speaking to people like that, I think most of us would. I don’t have a cleaner and I can see how she is effectively having to do more work if the house isn’t tidy but she should have negotiated with op over this, not given her a spontaneous bollocking in her own kitchen.

Why darling, the help are giving you backchat?
Dismiss them and find yourself a new domestic
Give over. I'm w.c I had a cleaner when working ft with 2DC.
I was a cleaner when I was out of work.
My cleaner drove a fancy audi with an apartment in the city centre. 🤷‍♀️

It does sound like she is struggling with her mental health. She suggested you get someone local so I would do that. If you feel bad you can always send a thank you card to her with a little money in it. X

I think if she's been good for 5 years, then give her the benefit of the doubt and let her continue for a while. It sounds like the stress of covid changing her day to day work has made her a bit paranoid and over thinking, which I can to an extent understand.

If I were you I'd get her back next time but sit her down before she starts cleaning and say I understand you are worried people are doing things differently and this is making you paranoid and upset but in my house I still expect X of you. A baby creates more mess but treat baby mess as you used to do anything else you found out of place. We'll give another month, ie 2 visits then see how we both feel then.

Yes but continuing for a while at this point means that OP will pay her over lockdown for not coming, for however long that is.

I've had cleaners in the past and generally once the trust is gone, then it's time to call it quits. Cleaner herself has said she doesn't want the extra travel.

Keeping a dog and barking yourself, is what comes to mind, OP. Time for both sides to move on, for whatever reason. She told you to get a local cleaner. That’s your get-out clause.

She resigned. She told you it wasn't working for her and to get a local cleaner. I'd do just that. I'm speaking as an ex cleaner by the way. She's been on to a really good thing with you, a generous payment and in terms of work needed I'd say she's taken the piss. For your old flat 4 hours would have been plenty. As a guide I'd clean 1 bathroom and kitchen, dust and vac 3 bedrooms, dining room, sitting room, hall stairs and landing on a 3 hour clean quite easily.

Did you get a chance to talk to her yet, OP?

I think a chat is definitely needed to clear the air and find out what is going on with her and whether she actually wants to stay on or not. Or whether you want to continue with her or not. I think after 5 years you both deserve that.

I have never had a cleaner (other than one-off end of tenancy type cleans). I have also never worked as a cleaner.

But I would think it's no different to hiring someone to do plumbing or decorating etc, although the arrangement goes on longer

Where on Earth does she get off talking to you like that, using phrases like 'not acceptable' and 'excuse' about the way you live IN YOUR OWN HOME?! And you just accepted this? Bloody hell, OP!

She was on to a good thing with you, and she's blown it. You are not her employer and not responsible for her. Take her at her word, get rid and get someone more local. Or manage without a cleaner.

I would suggest those who think you should 'be kind' etc are the ones that have a superiority complex and think that you should be playing a Lady Bountiful role to the poor lowly cleaner. No. You hired her to carry out a task, the quality of her work is deteriorating and now she is berating you in your own home. Don't feel guilty. You aren't living in the world of Downton Abbey.

she said it was not an excuse and not good enough. She also said it wasn't normal

Blimey. It might be one thing for her to say that you were doing things in a way that made things difficult for her, and could you possibly change X or Y. But lecturing you on things not being 'good enough' and 'not normal' and what are or aren't 'excuses' for how you run things in your home is inappropriate. And if she is like that with an adult, how might she act toward your child when they're a little older?

If it's truly a one-off, you might try once more. But otherwise try to get someone more local as she herself suggested. Or do without for a while - at the moment you're having the worst of all worlds: organizing your home according to someone else's demands, and paying for it into the bargain!

You both sound hard work tbh. Just clean yourself

@Itsallpointless "seriously typical MN luvvies". And yet here you are...
Off you fuck then 'luv'

I pressed the wrong button... I meant keep her, give her another go. She sounds like she’s under pressure / overwhelmed by the current situation (like most of us!) she has apologised (we all make mistakes!) and she’s been your cleaner for 5 years and you’ve been pleased with her over this time. Personally I think you should have a chat and move forward and if it doesn’t work then let her go.

I had an issue with a long standing cleaner, she was great at cleaning so I put up with lots of little comments, all with the hidden message of ‘you should be grateful to have me here as I am in high demand’ followed by constant price increases, which I still would have been happy to pay if it wasn’t for the attitude. I grew tired of playing the humble employer after a while- I didn’t bother calling her after the last lockdown. I would much rather struggle a bit and do it myself than tolerate the constant put downs in my own home. Still on the hunt for a new cleaner but one who will just get on with things!

Naaa, I'd sack her off, 5 years or not, from someone that I pay for a service, I expect them to conduct themselves in a polite and respectful manner. Fuck trying to lay down the law and lecture to me how to run my own home. If someone had a go at me, especially with a very new baby, they'd be out of the door there and then. It's incredibly unprofessional of her to rant about other clients. OP has enough on her plate with a new house and baby to humour someone she pays to do a job.

It’s really inhumane to sack a person for one single meltdown/ stress outburst in five years of service. If you were a company, you’d be taken to tribunal and lose

If OP were a company, which she is not, she wouldn't lose. Cleaner wasn't sacked, she quit.