Meet the Other Phone. Child-safe in minutes.

Meet the Other Phone.
Child-safe in minutes.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

To think that all the idiots have brought us back to total lockdown ?

441 replies

updownroundandround · 31/10/2020 18:02

So frustrated with all the people, from the ineffective and blustering MP to the idiots out trick or treating tonight............

When will people learn that a bloody pandemic cannot be ignored and that insisting on personal freedoms/ personal preferences is NOT going to shorten the lock downs or save the vulnerable ? Sad

OP posts:
Thread gallery
7
Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 10:35

@Toptotoeunicolour

They may have spiked for a couple of weeks but the students quarantined and cases came down rapidly.

It's not a fallacy that universities contributed. They did spike, and there was some spread into non-student community which has continued.

DS (in halls) quarantined, flat of 24, 4 positive tests, most had a mild symptom or two. Very relaxed approach to quarantining in the compound of 1,000+ students he lives in - they stayed in the compound and didn't travel on to campus or into city centre, but there was a lot of socialising within the compound. Suspect the fall in new cases (if there is one) within universities is due to herd immunity having become a reality in halls, which is a young, healthy, largely enclosed mini-community, and if it hasn't happened yet, it soon will.

It's not a fallacy that universities contributed. They did spike, and there was some spread into non-student community which has continued.

What evidence is there that it spread into the non-student community? Most students don't go anywhere near anyone else.

DS (in halls) quarantined, flat of 24, 4 positive tests, most had a mild symptom or two. Very relaxed approach to quarantining in the compound of 1,000+ students he lives in - they stayed in the compound and didn't travel on to campus or into city centre, but there was a lot of socialising within the compound. Suspect the fall in new cases (if there is one) within universities is due to herd immunity having become a reality in halls, which is a young, healthy, largely enclosed mini-community, and if it hasn't happened yet, it soon will.

It may have mean mismanaged in the University your DS is that but that doesn't mean that the majority of universities are similar. They are nowhere near herd immunity in most university halls. The drop is due to mass testing and quarantining.

Orcus · 02/11/2020 10:36

The majority of universities don't need to have spikes for it to be true that students caused some of them.

Mittens030869 · 02/11/2020 10:36

@Belladonna12

I agree with you. My DH has asthma, so is potentially vulnerable, despite not having had a day off sick in over five years at age 55. I have long Covid at age 51. We have school aged DDs of 11 and 8, so are definitely not at 'death's door'.

A lot of hospital patients in intensive care are in their fifties or sixties (Boris having been a case in point). From what I understand, vulnerability is according to overall health (being overweight is an important factor) rather than age.

And obviously, BAME people are also more at risk from Covid.

Toptotoeunicolour · 02/11/2020 10:36

It's not just "the idiots" OP, although they certainly have played a part. Nothing is ever that simple. It's also down to colder weather, lower Vitamin D levels, and an understandably relaxed approach to infecting the young and healthy as opposed to the old and vulnerable. Plus other things too.

Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 10:40

@Orcus

The majority of universities don't need to have spikes for it to be true that students caused some of them.
What evidence is there that it spread from students to the rest of the community?
Orcus · 02/11/2020 10:42

Why have you quoted my post in response to your question belladonna12? I commented on the existence of spikes caused by the presence of students, not on whether this led to spread. They're not the same argument.

MarieIVanArkleStinks · 02/11/2020 10:42

Pandora's box has already been opened. We are past the containment stage. Sensible precautions like hand-washing are the best possible preventative measures. Beyond that it's all noise.

The collateral damage is far more worrying. The sort of society we are creating. Where the needs of the vulnerable are consistently ignored. Not selective vulnerability, but the broader picture of people who will die from untreated cancers which might well have otherwise been curable had attention not been so consistently focused on one particular disease. Those who have addictions and will suffer relapses because they can't access their 12-step support programmes. Who were/are the poor, poor student/s who commit suicide in their university accommodation. Who are the families who grieve, no matter how their loved ones have died. Who have fallen victim to domestic violence in their own homes, owing to being locked down with an abusive partner. Where neighbours report each other for perceived breaches, where people are losing their livelihoods, homes, and their mental health put at serious risk. Where the hospitality industry will have been decimated to the point that it barely exists. Where it will be all work, and absolutely no play, relaxation or leisure activities/facilities. Where mental and physical health will have declined - as if either in Britain were in a particularly healthy place before - because much-needed forms of exercise and respite such as health clubs are now forbidden territory.

And, talking of territory, the territorial disputes. Will all you oiks stay off my land? Stay in your cities and don't come to the countryside? Feel free to tip rubbish/excrement if you don't? Deny the use of urban utilities to rural dwellers? 'Report' anyone you see breaching your interpretation of the rules?

The world can't stop indefinitely for the coronavirus. But if we are willing to sleepwalk into these situations, it can change irrevocably as a result of it.

nolongersurprised · 02/11/2020 10:44

You kniw, if I was a new Zealanders, I'd feel pretty nervous about the future. New Zealanders are going to have do little immunity against common flu, which is a far bigger killer than covid, when everything dies open up again.

I live in Australia where we haven’t eradicated Covid like NZ seem to have, but everything seems under control. Victoria locked down again when cases reached over 100/day but things have opened up again.

What you don’t understand is that most activities and places here and in NZ are “open” - schools, shops, kids’ sport, restaurants, cafes. People can visit each other. Viruses are circulating the same as they ever did. People are mingling.

Personally, I’d be more nervous about the future if I lived somewhere where ongoing lockdowns were being threatened as containment messages even while borders were still open.

Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 10:47

@Orcus

There were absolutely spikes that were caused by university students. This is not the same as saying they all were. Otherwise, explain why Fallowfield in GM spiralled to over 600 per 100,000 in the ward a fortnight after the students arrived. We in GM saw spikes in the wards containing the students. There is an easy explanation for this.
As I said there were spikes for a short period of time but cases came down rapidly.
Toptotoeunicolour · 02/11/2020 10:47

The drop is due to mass testing and quarantining.
"Mass testing" can mean different things to different people. In DS's flat of 24, only the first 4 were tested - the other 15 or so who had symptoms were not tested. Five were asymptomatic. Who knows how many of them had it?
The definition of quarantining should be more concrete, but actually wasn't totally concrete either. About a quarter of the flats in the compound were quarantined. Their interpretation of this was that they socialised outside in the evenings, and within the flats during the day.
No-one knows whether they have herd immunity yet or not. Herd immunity will not be evidenced solely by antibodies. The jury is still out on this, but there are some reasons to be hopeful for example vaccine trials are indicating T cell immunity and long lasting immunity (compare to SARS COVID1 immunity which could be effective against COVID19 too).

Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 10:49

@Toptotoeunicolour

The drop is due to mass testing and quarantining. "Mass testing" can mean different things to different people. In DS's flat of 24, only the first 4 were tested - the other 15 or so who had symptoms were not tested. Five were asymptomatic. Who knows how many of them had it? The definition of quarantining should be more concrete, but actually wasn't totally concrete either. About a quarter of the flats in the compound were quarantined. Their interpretation of this was that they socialised outside in the evenings, and within the flats during the day. No-one knows whether they have herd immunity yet or not. Herd immunity will not be evidenced solely by antibodies. The jury is still out on this, but there are some reasons to be hopeful for example vaccine trials are indicating T cell immunity and long lasting immunity (compare to SARS COVID1 immunity which could be effective against COVID19 too).
You cannot assume that it is the same in all universities. They are not one big company that all do the same thing. In the University that I work in students are encouraged to get tested whether or not they have symptoms. Few have tested positive so far.
Toptotoeunicolour · 02/11/2020 10:53

Of course I didn't assume all universities are the same. I gave an anecdote, and you gave a different anecdote. Both valid, neither scientific.
But it will be interesting to see whether infections now drop off in those semi enclosed halls communities that probably spread it freely amongst themselves but without transmitting much to communities outside.

Orcus · 02/11/2020 10:58

In which case belladonna, it can't be a fallacy that there were spikes caused by universities.

Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 11:02

@Orcus

In which case belladonna, it can't be a fallacy that there were spikes caused by universities.
I meant they didn't lead to spikes in the nearby communities. And as cases have dropped dramatically since universities are nothing to do with the current rise in infections in the general population.
NameChange84 · 02/11/2020 11:09

@MarieIVanArkleStinks

Pandora's box has already been opened. We are past the containment stage. Sensible precautions like hand-washing are the best possible preventative measures. Beyond that it's all noise.

The collateral damage is far more worrying. The sort of society we are creating. Where the needs of the vulnerable are consistently ignored. Not selective vulnerability, but the broader picture of people who will die from untreated cancers which might well have otherwise been curable had attention not been so consistently focused on one particular disease. Those who have addictions and will suffer relapses because they can't access their 12-step support programmes. Who were/are the poor, poor student/s who commit suicide in their university accommodation. Who are the families who grieve, no matter how their loved ones have died. Who have fallen victim to domestic violence in their own homes, owing to being locked down with an abusive partner. Where neighbours report each other for perceived breaches, where people are losing their livelihoods, homes, and their mental health put at serious risk. Where the hospitality industry will have been decimated to the point that it barely exists. Where it will be all work, and absolutely no play, relaxation or leisure activities/facilities. Where mental and physical health will have declined - as if either in Britain were in a particularly healthy place before - because much-needed forms of exercise and respite such as health clubs are now forbidden territory.

And, talking of territory, the territorial disputes. Will all you oiks stay off my land? Stay in your cities and don't come to the countryside? Feel free to tip rubbish/excrement if you don't? Deny the use of urban utilities to rural dwellers? 'Report' anyone you see breaching your interpretation of the rules?

The world can't stop indefinitely for the coronavirus. But if we are willing to sleepwalk into these situations, it can change irrevocably as a result of it.

I can only speak for my local area but Cancer diagnosis and treatment has gone ahead. One of my parents had extensive tests for cancer at the earliest sign following a telephone appointment back in April, they underwent 8 weeks of tests as both an in patient and outpatient and were totally fine by June. I know two other people who have completed Chemotherapy as normal having been diagnosed during the lockdown. I also know several oncology outpatients who have had all their follow ups and scans as normal. I am in a very poor part of the U.K. with an NHS Trust that always struggles so if ours can cope there is no reason anywhere else in the country wouldn’t.

Also under the current rules 12 Step Programmes can and do go ahead in socially distanced groups of up to 15. This is the same for any “support group”. Locally NHS and Social Services Mental Health services never stopped during the first lockdown and are continuing. I’ve accessed treatment, was offered face to face back as early as April if I’d wanted, a friend was sectioned, another helped by the crisis team when she was close to another suicide attempt and right now a relative is attending an in person Psychiatric review with their Psychiatrist and their Social Worker and has been told their follow up will be going ahead in 6 weeks time providing no one has to self isolate.

It’s very clear in the official guidelines that if you are in danger (domestic violence) you are not obviously exempt from staying home and domestic abuse charities are still offering their services (in fact more than ever).

Places of worships are still allowed to be open for private prayer and also for vital community services such as Foodbanks, Childcare, Support Groups, Homeless Drop ins etc.

The university at I teach at has never stopped running Well-being and free counselling for students.

We are allowed to travel within a reasonable distance for outdoor exercise. Walking, Cycling, Running and outdoor recreation has increased not decreased and again, in the guidelines it’s very clear that we should be taking exercise with even the elderly told to get outside and walk this time round.

Hand washing won’t make a huge amount of difference for an airborne disease which is extremely contagious at close quarters.

I’m not denying that there have been huge problems but I just felt I should offer that it’s not everywhere that certain treatments have stopped and that actually there’s been no reason to stop them. Some people have been too scared to access them but again that’s a separate issue and again, at least on a local level, our NHS Trust and social services are putting out regular pleas for people to access their services.

I think some lessons have been learned this time round but also we need greater coverage of the fact that actually some vital support and healthcare never stopped but some people who are totally against lockdown use incorrect facts to justify letting it rip through the whole country, doing worse damage to health and the economy than an EFFECTIVE lockdown would.

Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 11:11

@Toptotoeunicolour

Of course I didn't assume all universities are the same. I gave an anecdote, and you gave a different anecdote. Both valid, neither scientific. But it will be interesting to see whether infections now drop off in those semi enclosed halls communities that probably spread it freely amongst themselves but without transmitting much to communities outside.
My anecdote doesn't relate to a single University. A lot of my friends and colleagues work in different ones around the country. Anyway, this dashboard gives the percentage of reported cases in each University. There may be some underreporting but generally testing has been higher than in the general population. It's unlikely they are near herd immunity, I think.

www.ucu.org.uk/covid-dashboard

Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 11:17

The collateral damage is far more worrying. The sort of society we are creating. Where the needs of the vulnerable are consistently ignored. Not selective vulnerability, but the broader picture of people who will die from untreated cancers which might well have otherwise been curable had attention not been so consistently focused on one particular disease.

When healthcare services are overwhelmed they will be focusing on people whose lives are in most imminent danger. They are not going to refuse to treat someone who could die in a few hours so they can do a cervical smear. That's why it is important that the NHS is not overwhelmed. Everyone will suffer if it is, including people with non-Covid conditions.

VinylDetective · 02/11/2020 11:23

That's the median age. It means that 50% of people who die will be under 82 and gives you no information about the age range

There’s plenty of information about the age range. Here you go.

www.ons.gov.uk/peoplepopulationandcommunity/healthandsocialcare/conditionsanddiseases/articles/coronaviruscovid19roundup/2020-03-26#deaths

VinylDetective · 02/11/2020 11:26

Less than 6k deaths of people aged under 65. I rest my case.

boobot1 · 02/11/2020 11:31

@Soundbyte

I think it’s a shame that people are being coerced into blaming each other for this shitshow and turning on each other rather than directing their ire at the actual cause - the shower of bastards that is our government.
Agreed
Belladonna12 · 02/11/2020 11:33

@VinylDetective

Less than 6k deaths of people aged under 65. I rest my case.
Less than 6K deaths by 16th October. The majority of people under 65 have not yet been infected.
everybodysang · 02/11/2020 11:50

There's just so much stupid on this thread. Stupid and selfish.

Just wear a fucking mask, try and do the best you can with the rules, get the rates down a bit so our infrastructure can cope. It's so fucking simple. We might have to do it again too, until there's a vaccine. And we also need to push for environmental changes so we don't end up in a cycle of ever-worsening pandemics.

hetanom · 02/11/2020 11:59

Just wear a fucking mask, try and do the best you can with the rules, get the rates down a bit so our infrastructure can cope. It's so fucking simple

I think the government needs to take some blame for this. When I read the news from the UK I'm constantly confused by the specific rules for every little thing, constant changes to those rules, backtracking, etc.

Where I live, when the WHO said in April that masks are beneficial, our government said right that's it, masks are mandatory in all public places. Done. No confusion over wear or when they should be worn, or by who. No changing the rule two weeks later. Same with the closure and reopening of commercial sectors. Shops were shut, then eventually reopened. Then bars and restaruants. Then gyms etc. No reopening things and then suddenly saying oh there's a 10pm curfew now. No stupid 3-word slogans changing every few weeks. The rule on gathering was "don't see people outside who you live with". Nothing about rules of 6, or rules of 1 as long as you're in a park, or bubbles, or whatever the UK rule is this week. God, just thinking about how needlessly complicated and confusing the UK government made it all gives me a headache.

bottleofbeer · 02/11/2020 12:24

Those uni figures are interesting. The uni I attend has minimal cases. The other main uni in the city has high numbers. Why? Campus buildings are within a stone's throw of each other. Accommodations are close together. It makes no sense whatsoever that two universities in such close proximity to each other have such different figures.

Mine is (was) only allowing postgrad and PhD students into any buildings but I am told it is the same at the other one.

Doesn't stack up, really.

VinylDetective · 02/11/2020 13:09

Less than 6K deaths by 16th October. The majority of people under 65 have not yet been infected

Haven’t they? You know this how? Are you saying the majority of people over 65 have been infected? You do realise you’re making absolutely no sense?