AIBU to not let DS stayover at MILs after this -dog concerns

[TheMILinatorReturns]

Name changed Sorry Long rant...
Half term, MIL kindly agreed to look after 3YO DS...all going well, photos of fun activities etc and grateful of the help. Then I get a phone call to say she's confessing she has allowed a relative to bring her staffordshire bull terrier into the house with DS present which is something DH told her specifically not to do. I'm guessing she had to 'confess' because DS would have told me anyway...

I'm pretty livid because I don't trust dogs, especially the big ones around my small child and particularly ones I have never met myself. I know I will get flamed for this by diehard dog lovers but to me dogs are animals and can easily flip when under stress, small children and dogs together are (IMHO) an unpredictable mix and an unnecessary risk I wanted to avoid with our child. Also she has not respected my wishes by allowing this (she has past form for this).

Another point is this particular breed doesn't have a great reputation, they are powerful muscular dogs and there are a lot of children according to news channels who have been killed or left with life changing injuries in this country alone. I have actually had a bad experience with one myself when I had to do a home visit and was knocked to the ground and had it not been wearing a muzzle I am not sure what would have happened but that's another story.

Granted I am sure the majority of these dogs are lovely pets and great around kids but.... I was not comfortable with this and DH communicated it to MIL, I never thought she would go ahead anyway. She has apologised says it was an 'accident' she 'thought it was a delivery' and the dog just came running in. This says to me it was out of control for one, surely it should have been on a lead on the street outside...? She says she held DS on her lap whilst the relative sat across the room with the dog and it was 'only five minutes' and the relative had come with a present for DS (his birthday soon). I suppose it is good she has admitted it and apologised but to be honest I think she is trying to minimise it and I don't know why she didn't just say 'please will you take the dog away whilst my grandson is here'. She could even have blamed it on me and said my crazy DIL wont let me have dogs in the house whilst I have my grandson here, I wouldn't have cared. To me she has prioritised the relatives feelings over my sons safety. This is really difficult for me because on the one hand I feel everyone will think I am overreacting but on the other had something gone wrong and the dog got jealous (it often stays with MIL apparently) and bitten DS... it just doesn't bear thinking about. Trying to put this into perspective as nothing actually happened (and I will probably be accused of PFBS) but the fact is she knew our wishes, WHY then allow this to happen, I just don't get it? It was the only rule we lay down, didn't even say don't feed him up with sweets and chocolate (which she always does) because we realise this is a grandparent thing. Part of me wonders if she is trying to push my buttons on purpose as she has been difficult over other issues in the past (she can be quite overbearing and manipulative - I never thought spiteful though). She called me up on video call to 'confess' and I wonder if she wanted to witness my reaction. I really want DS to see his grandparents but I am going to sit worrying about this bloody dog being near him now if I send him back there to stayover and that I cannot trust MIL to do as we have asked. AIBU to tell MIL she can see DS but only at our house or at hers when we are there and no more staying over? DH will support this. However I don't want to be accused by SIL and other family members of keeping MIL away from DS...what to do?!

@MootingMirror You need to get over your irrational fear of dogs or your child will grow up scared of them. Every parent should be cautious of dogs and children together but saying your child is never allowed to be around dogs is ridiculous and benefits no one. You're hurting your child.

Tell that to the girl I went to school with who lost her nose due to a dog attack. It's not an irrational fear at all.... to add a second girl at my school also had a scared face due to a dog attack. I have also had a Doberman run after me as a child. It was later removed for biting its owner. This stuff happens unfortunately.

The dog isn't the issue - although if it came bounding into the house - obviously not under control - the issue is that your MIL is lying to you. She would have seen who was at the door and she let them in - knowing your feelings. I don't think the relative pushed passed her - do you?

Eurgh my cat was quite possible killed by a Bordeaux. He was incredibly stupid though and used to walk along the fence near the garden it lived in almost egging it on. That said I don't think he deserved to be ripped apart for his crime of walking along a fence. And yes I realise cats kill birds too (but at least I used to have a collar with a bell to try and give fair warning). I will never know if that is what actually happened but owner was very sheepish around me. Aren't children also small fast moving creatures to a big dog?

God that’s awful. I’m so sorry, that is a really traumatic way to lose your pet. No wonder you are abit wary of dogs. No, he absolutely did not deserve to die in that awful way. If a dog cannot be controlled it should be on a lead.

Only difficulty is if it happened in the dog’s garden then the owner cannot be accused of acting irresponsibly as dogs are allowed off lead in their own garden. Still it doesn’t make it any easier for you when something like this happens. Sorry again 😢

Eurgh my cat was quite possible killed by a Bordeaux. He was incredibly stupid though and used to walk along the fence near the garden it lived in almost egging it on. That said I don't think he deserved to be ripped apart for his crime of walking along a fence. And yes I realise cats kill birds too (but at least I used to have a collar with a bell to try and give fair warning). I will never know if that is what actually happened but owner was very sheepish around me. Aren't children also small fast moving creatures to a big dog?
The point I am trying to make here is dogs and cats are both predatory animals.
They both get excited at the thought of hunting smaller animals.
Some dogs just chase but a lot go the whole way.

I’m not saying it’s not horrific, it is.
Of course I don’t believe any cat ‘deserves’ to be a killed by a dog.
I have a cat myself.

But you need to understand they are both predatory creatures.
Just as cats go after birds, dogs will go after rabbits, cats etc.

Predatory behaviour in dogs is entirely separate from human aggression, which is usually motivated by fear.
Predatory aggression is fun (for the dog)
There is NO link between dogs that hunt and child aggression.

In very (very) rare cases high prey drive has mistaken newborn babies for prey.
But if I read correctly you said your DS is three?
Dogs will not recognise a three year old as ‘prey’

@MrsJunglelow

ER no I am not saying muzzle all dogs I am saying if your dog is known to bites/ attack people or other animals then put a muzzle on it when near other people I didn’t see any posts from you stating the relatives dog had attacked anyone? Did I miss it?! The vast majority of owners with aggressive dogs DO muzzle them. The police can have their dogs PTS if they know it poses a risk and don’t muzzle and leash it.

And animal aggression is entirely different.
Dogs are predators, no different to cats.
Cats kill mice and no one worries they will go on to kill a child.
Same with dogs.

Honestly.
I was very much with you at first, staffy prejudice aside, but I’m afraid your last few posts are hysterical and silly.

Now I am amused and bemused. I was talking in general terms as another poster mentioned about dogs approaching my child in parks and I was pointing out that I don't have a problem with that as long as they are well trained and muzzled when in public if the owner knows they are a biter.

"Cats kill mice and no one worries they will go on to kill a child" errr thats because I don't think a cat has ever attacked and killed a child but dogs have. Cats have accidently suffocated a child by sitting on a pram as its warm.. cats are usually quite small arent they. And you say I am silly...

Yes I accept what you are saying in a PARK. But this wasn't in a park it was in a confined indoor place when I had asked beforehand for him not to meet this dog with me not around.

Not even just parks but for example in other children's houses on play dates. Birthday parties, at BBQs etc. There will be other times where dogs you don't know well will run up to your child. The point I'm trying to make is this will happen and all that you (or your MIL) can do is to hold your child, supervise etc. Which sounds like what she did.

I have a dog. I foster rescue dogs to assess suitability for possible rehoming - never had a staffie and never will - I have children and must have a dog I can physically control - staffies have a unique fixed jaw which is basically fixed when attacking - no thanks x

errr thats because I don't think a cat has ever attacked and killed a child but dogs have. Cats have accidently suffocated a child by sitting on a pram as its warm.. cats are usually quite small arent they. And you say I am silly...
The dynamic is entirely different though, one is a solitary animal and one is a pack animal with a hierarchy (though many will dispute that).
One has a reputation for swiping and tends to be given distance and one has a reputation to be loyal and placid and tends to be climbed all over and followed and expected to sit there and take it without complaint.

Fatal dog attacks are extremely rare.
A child has more chance of being injured by its own parents than fatally injured by a dog.
Some perspective is needed here.

And I absolutely think you are being very silly.

I am in full agreement that your child should not be around unknown dogs.

But the stuff about dogs killing animals meaning they will kill people, the talk of muzzling, the insinuation that the Staffordshire bull terrier spends its time mauling kids.
It’s hysterical and silly.

@kathmacc

I have a dog. I foster rescue dogs to assess suitability for possible rehoming - never had a staffie and never will - I have children and must have a dog I can physically control - staffies have a unique fixed jaw which is basically fixed when attacking - no thanks x

Oh no, not again. Where are you reading this? That’s a myth, and it’s sad that it prevents people from considering a staffie.

It is a proven myth thay fighting dogs like the Staffie and ABPT have “lock jaw”. ... There is absolutely no evidence for the existence of any kind of “locking mechanism” unique to the structure of the jaw and/or teeth of the American Pit Bull Terrier.”

Staffies are strong dogs for their size but based on that logic you could never have a strong dog. Especially not not a GD, Rottie or Doberman. All three of those breeds have a stronger bite than the staffie.

Dogs need training regardless of size or breed.

Staffies have a unique fixed jaw which is basically fixed when attacking - no thanks
Except they don’t...
Its a widely disproven myth.
No dog has a fixed jaw.

@kathmacc

I have a dog. I foster rescue dogs to assess suitability for possible rehoming - never had a staffie and never will - I have children and must have a dog I can physically control - staffies have a unique fixed jaw which is basically fixed when attacking - no thanks x

Based on absolutely no facts whatsoever

@gingerbreadfox

Yes I accept what you are saying in a PARK. But this wasn't in a park it was in a confined indoor place when I had asked beforehand for him not to meet this dog with me not around.

Not even just parks but for example in other children's houses on play dates. Birthday parties, at BBQs etc. There will be other times where dogs you don't know well will run up to your child. The point I'm trying to make is this will happen and all that you (or your MIL) can do is to hold your child, supervise etc. Which sounds like what she did.

No because I will almost always be there myself the first time or at least whilst he is young. Being there myself makes a difference I guess. To be honest if I knew the house had a big dog wandering the house I would be reluctant to send him whilst he is little.

@PanamaPattie

The dog isn't the issue - although if it came bounding into the house - obviously not under control - the issue is that your MIL is lying to you. She would have seen who was at the door and she let them in - knowing your feelings. I don't think the relative pushed passed her - do you?

This. MIL told you the relative came with a gift for DS. So either the relative knew DS was there, turned up uninvited and allowed the dog to run, or she was invited.

I agree with PP who suggested MIL is fudging the truth to see how little she can get away with. YANBU. The trust has been broken.

@MrsJunglelow

errr thats because I don't think a cat has ever attacked and killed a child but dogs have. Cats have accidently suffocated a child by sitting on a pram as its warm.. cats are usually quite small arent they. And you say I am silly... The dynamic is entirely different though, one is a solitary animal and one is a pack animal with a hierarchy (though many will dispute that). One has a reputation for swiping and tends to be given distance and one has a reputation to be loyal and placid and tends to be climbed all over and followed and expected to sit there and take it without complaint.

Fatal dog attacks are extremely rare.
A child has more chance of being injured by its own parents than fatally injured by a dog.
Some perspective is needed here.

And I absolutely think you are being very silly.

I am in full agreement that your child should not be around unknown dogs.

But the stuff about dogs killing animals meaning they will kill people, the talk of muzzling, the insinuation that the Staffordshire bull terrier spends its time mauling kids.
It’s hysterical and silly.

I think you have taken the things I have said massively out of context. talk of muzzles... already explain this one... if your dog bites/kills cats put a muzzle on it when in public. You dont think that is common sense or good practice? I didnt say put it down did I? "A child has more chance of being injured by its own parents than fatally injured by a dog" True... thats why I have stair gates and things to protect DS. What is wrong with asking for a strange dog not to be let near my son when I am not around? Seriously why do you have an issue with that?

"Fatal dog attacks are extremely rare". But they still happen. One child dying is one too many. Tell your theory to parents who have lost a child in this way. If I can help protect my son from this risk then why shouldn't I?

Oh also.
This notion that cats never harm anyone, especially not children, only accidentally by sleeping with them..

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.kidspot.com.au/health/baby-health/real-life/mum-warns-of-the-dangers-of-household-pets-after-her-baby-was-attacked/news-story/6d6a0d8cc4a55b0c50cd20bd4f93e4f1

www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/870201/cat-attacks-baby-in-cot/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nextshark.com/baby-cat-mauls-7-pitbulls-canada/amp/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/kanpur/Cat-kills-45-day-old-child-in-Chakeri/amp_articleshow/55482883.cms

Extremely rare of course

What is wrong with asking for a strange dog not to be let near my son when I am not around? Seriously why do you have an issue with that?

Go back and have a re read of what I actually said.
Specifically the bit where I said that I would not be comfortable with a dog that was not my own around my children
My issue was with your prejudice against the staffy specifically and the later more hysterical posts suggesting their predatory instinct equals killing children. Which it absolutely doesn’t.
I was in agreement that your MIL was wrong from the start!

It's completely wrong to generalise about the breed and also completely irrelevant. I worked in an animal shelter specialising in this breed and they are actually one of the gentlest and most family friendly breeds. However they get a bad rap because they look like certain banned dogs and also because of the people who stereotypically own them. Generalising in this way could cause your child to be ignorant of the facts too. I'd also be a bit concerned about sheltering DS from dogs completely, he is going to come across them and it's equally important he knows how to approach a dog and how to behave around them (ie always ask before approaching a dog, be gentle, don't get in their face etc).

However, I dont disagree with the point of the post. The fact is you made your wishes known and MIL didn't respect them. As a mum that's hard as you are trusting someone with the most precious person in your life. Hope you get it sorted! Xx

My husband have facial scars from a dog under his grandparents' watch (his father's parents) his mother was furious that his grandma didn't see the dog coming when he was left alone outdoors (she was getting laundry to hang to dry) his grandfather did see the dog and saved him

PanamaPattie

The dog isn't the issue - although if it came bounding into the house - obviously not under control - the issue is that your MIL is lying to you. She would have seen who was at the door and she let them in - knowing your feelings. I don't think the relative pushed passed her - do you?

This. MIL told you the relative came with a gift for DS. So either the relative knew DS was there, turned up uninvited and allowed the dog to run, or she was invited.

I agree with PP who suggested MIL is fudging the truth to see how little she can get away with. YANBU. The trust has been broken.

@MeridianB yes I do feel something is not quite right about her story, something doesnt add up.. that's a very good point re present and invitation. Also that she can now say 'well he was fine with the dog last time why wouldn't he be fine again' slowly eroding any authority and getting her own way...perhaps because she didnt like my view point and didnt want to say the truth to DH. I've had it before where things are done very slyly and I start to question whether this is just me thinking was this on purpose because if it is it's a total mind f*ck.

What is wrong with asking for a strange dog not to be let near my son when I am not around?

But it wasn’t a strange dog. The dog owner you said was a “relative” who is close enough to you/your son to have brought them a birthday present. So how can it be a strange dog?

Second, define near. Near to me is within touching distance. Your son on was held on a lap while the dog sat by the owner at least 2m away due to social distancing general.

And yes dogs can be aggressive, I had enough of them who bit some of my family. OP's husband must know something in order for him to tell his mother not to let the dog around the child. So no op, you are not being unreasonable

@MrsJunglelow

Oh also. This notion that cats never harm anyone, especially not children, only accidentally by sleeping with them..

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/amp.kidspot.com.au/health/baby-health/real-life/mum-warns-of-the-dangers-of-household-pets-after-her-baby-was-attacked/news-story/6d6a0d8cc4a55b0c50cd20bd4f93e4f1

www.thesun.co.uk/archives/news/870201/cat-attacks-baby-in-cot/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/nextshark.com/baby-cat-mauls-7-pitbulls-canada/amp/

www.google.co.uk/amp/s/m.timesofindia.com/city/kanpur/Cat-kills-45-day-old-child-in-Chakeri/amp_articleshow/55482883.cms

Extremely rare of course

Yes pretty rare... and not convinced the one article re a cat related death in India was caused by a cat unless extremely unlucky. I cant believe I am rising to this BUT and yes some are tabloid links as too lazy to google the actual news article. This is a quick google, makes some awful reading.

en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fatal_dog_attacks_in_the_United_Kingdom

12 day old Baby killed September 2020 www.google.com/amp/s/www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/dog-mauled-newborn-baby-death-22689188.amp
www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-south-yorkshire-54293943
Reuben mcNulty 2018 newborn baby DEAD catastrophic brain injury staffie attack parents or t Peterborough www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-cambridgeshire-46783801
Frankie Macritchie 9 DEAD cornwall 54 bites to the head April 2019. Mother jailed for two years
Archie Joe baby DEAD, Daniel Jay Darby toddler intensive care serious injuries mother serious injuries 2016 Essex aunts dog was destroyed,toddler has recently been moved into the house. www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/1974521/staffordshire-bull-terrier-which-mauled-baby-boy-to-death-belongs-to-a-policewoman/amp/ A
Maxin Bennett 2 years old face ripped open to see his teeth and skull life scarred for life at grandparents house July 2020 www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8492845/amp/You-teeth-Toddler-face-ripped-half-dog-party.html
Dexter Neal. 3 year old DEAD Essex 2017 www.google.com/amp/s/www.bbc.co.uk/news/amp/uk-england-essex-39936908
Child aged 4 bitten and dragged along ground shopping centre Wrexham September 2020 www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailypost.co.uk/news/north-wales-news/owner-flees-after-staffie-bites-18883274.amp
Jade Lomas-Anderson, F, 14 years DEAD attacked by visiting friends staffies dogs shot dead by police www.google.com/amp/s/www.manchestereveningnews.co.uk/news/greater-manchester-news/jade-lomas-anderson-inquest-hears-how-7989953.amp
35 year old man DEAD killed by his pet Staffordshire bull terrier when he had an epillectic fit. www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-8763149/amp/Police-marksman-kills-dog-bites-owner-35-death.html
Louise Caygill, F, 43 DEAD bitten to death by own staffie www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-28450645
Stephen Hogdson 43 DEAD - dog ripped his throat out when he passed out. metro.co.uk/2016/05/24/we-tried-to-drag-him-off-but-he-was-just-too-strong-family-speak-out-after-fatal-dog-attack-5902204/
David Ellam, M, 52 DEAD mauled by Staffordshire cross kneecap torn off and lost half his body 2016 www.google.com/amp/s/m.huffingtonpost.co.uk/amp/entry/huddersfield-man-52-dies-after-attack-by-seized-dog_uk_57b2f9fae4b08e6ad8740210/
Sharon Jennings, 55 serious injuries and dies later in hospital Preston 2019
11 children injured some seriously at a play park by an out of control staffie in Northumberland 2016 www.google.com/amp/s/www.express.co.uk/news/uk/671836/horror-as-Staffordshire-Bull-Terrier-attacks-ELEVEN-children-in-Northumberland-park/amp
Owners arm nearly ripped off and injured July 2020 Dogs killed eachother www.google.com/amp/s/www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/police-seize-two-staffordshire-bull-4368281.amp
Women in her 40s life changing injuries Isle of Wight flown to hospital air ambulance, plastic surgery etc. July 2020 www.google.com/amp/s/www.thesun.co.uk/news/12169819/staffordshire-bull-terrier-shot-dead-by-police/amp/
Man in 70s arm mauled and dog killed www.google.com/amp/s/www.stokesentinel.co.uk/news/stoke-on-trent-news/nurse-steps-save-man-dog-4380420.amp
Owner and pensioner frenzied attack. www.google.com/amp/s/www.theboltonnews.co.uk/news/18198875.amp/
Woman requires 8 hours plastic surgery and left with horrific scars 2020 dog destroyed owner prosecuted www.nwemail.co.uk/news/18697795.barrow-man-avoids-jail-woman-left-requiring-eight-hours-plastic-surgery-following-staffy-dog-attack/
Girl 11 knocked off horse and bitted horse also injured www.google.com/amp/s/www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-7863159/amp/Girl-horse-mauled-Staffordshire-Bull-Terrier-Tweed-Heads-beach-holidays.html

OP, you are unlikely to get many sensible responses from Mumsnet when it comes to the emotional fixation many members have on dogs (sometimes to the detriment of people).

And yes, these reservations is breed-specific, and yes, allegedly the dog most likely to bite is the labrador. It's true too that the Staffordshire often has a lovely temperament. But these are big, stocky dogs with incredibly strong jaws which have a vice-like grip. They can turn on a sixpence, totally unprovoked (and invariably have owners who profess surprise and say they've never done that before). Once they have a target in their sights they're also very determined.

I don't fear dogs in general or Staffies specifically, and am around dogs (and horses) a lot. But this is not a risk I'd ever take with my child. You also specifically told your MiL not to do this and she ignored your wishes.

Do the benefits outweigh the risks in this situation? Absolutely not. Nor do you have any reassurance that the situation won't be repeated. YANBU.

Not all dogs can't be trusted around children, but I understand your concerns you don't know this dog he hasn't been brought up around your child and doesn't know him.
I would tell my mother in law straight unless she can do as we ask and ask the person not to bring to dog when her grandchild is there, he won't be able to go to her house anymore. X

OP your issue should be with your MIL following your requests to not have dogs around your child.

You’ve gone off on a massive tangent about Staffies and big dogs and kids being mauled to death.

It’s irrelevant. YOU DONT LIKE NOR TRUST DOGS - we get it.

You don’t have to have dogs around your family. That is your choice but you are not going to convince other people because the VAST MAJORITY of interactions between dogs and humans are not ending in either injury or death.

Literally millions of people own dogs, millions of kids live with dogs.

You don’t want one - Fine. But get off your soapbox please.

There are thousands of road traffic accidents a year and thousands of sexual assaults by men in children but I assume you still have a car and a husband?

Honestly, your issues around dogs are going to be passed onto your DC and he’s going to be one of those poor little sods who screams like a banshee and cries when a dog comes within 6ft of him in a street. It’s incredibly unfair to pass on your fear.

Tell your MIL again you’d rather not have DC around a dog but honestly if you can’t trust her to respect your wishes then you’ll have to find alternative childcare