That's a first. Accused of transphobia. WIBU? Screenshots.

[DelvingintoInsanity]

A group on facebook that I'm in.

Have never been accused of transphobia before and like to think I'm a tolerant and inclusive person. Quite socked and wondering if I am in the wrong here?

Clearly, I'm now close from being banned from the group. Just for context, it's a writing group.

Female not remake, apologies

It is possible to give someone who was born with a penis a vagina or create a penis for someone with a vagina. This is the sex of the person changing

No it's not. It is the genital organs changing. Sex is more than that - it is the genetic composition of a human that affects production of hormones and secondary sexual characteristics. You can stick a penis on a woman or cut a vagina into a man - but they will still be their genetic and biological sex.

Well considering 94% of people agree with you, I think there’s a strong case to say you are absolutely right!!

A poster said up thread that Joanne Harris is very pro men being able to call themselves women and that she refused to speak up for JK Rowling.

I am a fan of her books but if this is true, I'll never buy another one and will let her know exactly why.

Maybe we should try to turn this shite around by making them afraid to upset women rather than being afraid to upset men. Take back some power and the first place to do this is slap them right in the pocket.

In case Joanne is confused, a man has a penis and a woman does not. Arthur will never be Martha no many how many gobshits say they can.

There it is. If this continues to be misunderstood, the only losers will be women.

We've only had the vote for 100 years and yet there are those amongst us who want to give up all the rights that other women so hard won for us.

If you know of anyone who is against women in this way, please stop putting money in their purse and let them know why.

@SuitedandBooted @CandyLeBonBon I’m feeling that someone who identifies as a trans man and makes the effort to appear very typically male to society would probably not want to talk about being born female while casually chatting to, say... someone at their place of work, for example.

I’m ok with being honest and open. But while you’re just trying to quickly grab a coffee and Janice from accounting who you don’t even know particularly well is politely making awkward small talk and asking if you have a wife, it’s much more likely this hypothetical trans man would say one of: “oh actually I’m gay/have a husband/not married.” Rather than: “Oh actually I was born female and am attracted to men/not married.”

Gender and ID politics are exactly that, a new age religion. Just as the world is moving on from the religions of old, it shows humanity just can't cope unless they have some sort of belief system that defies all logic (or gives girls and women any respect and autonomy over their own bodies)

@BrumBoo

So so so true!

Perfect--Stating you are pan furthers this conversation IN NO WAY.

You can only have meant it as a juvenile gotcha.

I am not here to discuss who you want/do not want to fuck. This is not junior school. We could discuss the topic the OP raised.

@CatsAndEyeliner I have spent much time with gender non conforming individuals who never felt the need for those conversations. Because believe it or not, most people actually aren't that interested in that level of naval gazing.

Gender non conformity is not new, in spite of what the current gender ideologists might have you believe.

@Perfect28

Cool well I'm a feminist who believes that men get a pretty raw deal from sexism and misogyny too, so actually I would rather no one was raped rather than just women were not raped. Apparently that makes me some kind of extremist who hates women. Lol. Goodnight all. I hope you learn to understand nuance ❤️

I would prefer that men stopped raping people. Is that the kind of nuance you mean?

@CandyLeBonBon again, that’s not really answering the question. You seem to only be able to consider the specific type of people you spend time with.

most people actually aren't that interested in that level of naval gazing.
^ Yes. But some are.

Can we not see sexual assault as the problem and not sex?

Not whilst males commit 98% of all sex crimes against the majority of female victims. A prime example of the very fact it is ALL about sex. The sex of the perpetrators is as relevant as the sex of the victims.
Fuck all to do with anyone's 'identity'

Same as human trafficking because, again, the vast majority of victims are female. (The tiny amount of males will be mostly children bought by perverted rich men)
All these women and girls trafficked to be used by men who don't even see them as 'human'.

The only people who benefit from pretending sex doesn't matter are males, because then we can't point out the fucking obvious which makes them look bad. If modern day slavery affected men it would've been stopped. As it's just women being used and the rich getting richer, they turn a blind eye. Same old misogyny.

I would love to move to a post gendered world, where individuals don't feel the need to express their sex to everyone else

Gender is made up bollocks anyway. I have never needed to express my sex. I am my sex.

Never the Twain shall meet
It’s futile
Just Ignore , don’t give oxygen to it

[quote CatsAndEyeliner]@CandyLeBonBon again, that’s not really answering the question. You seem to only be able to consider the specific type of people you spend time with.

most people actually aren't that interested in that level of naval gazing.
^ Yes. But some are.[/quote]
In which case they, as we all should, need to remind ourselves that the world is vast, and expecting everyone to turn themselves inside out to accommodate every individual's personal views of the world is neither healthy nor sustainable. As long as people are not out and out spiteful, I cannot see how expecting everyone else to trip over themselves to avoid perceived slights can be anything other than entitled and self absorbed.

We are all individuals. We are all different. But recognising that we have some inherent similarities as human beings is actually what reminds us of our own humanity. There's no solace in solitude. The gender ideology that is currently in fashion is very isolating and serves no-one.

Why do you care? I'm a person. I want human rights. That's it

Unfortunately it isn’t that simple. Some groups need specific services and protections to achieve equality. That is why equality legislation recognises protected characteristics and allows discrimination in some circumstances, e.g. single sex spaces,

Can we not see sexual assault as the problem and not sex?

No, as pussyhat says, differences in offending rates (under 5% of the prison population is female) demonstrate that sex is very much a problem.

@CandyLeBonBon

• Just tried to read this and can't access it. So how, physiologically is this possible? To gestate a fetus outside the uterus to 36 weeks?

Can someone summarise the contents of this?*

Summary
Abdominal pregnancy followed total hysterectomy performed three days after coitus. A healthy infant was born by laparotomy after 36 weeks of gestation.

Basically the placenta attaches to the wall of other abdominal organs.

Another one- should be free access

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3158531/

Still want to know if I get 2k off @VettiyaIruken

Thanks for clarifying that this has never, in fact, actually happened to you.

@yourhairiswinterfire

What is it about mumsnet and this issue? Why do you care? Does it affect you? Just leave people alone.

We care because it is affecting women and this is a predominantly female forum.

This mangling of language leads to companies competing with each other to come up with the most degrading terms they can to refer to women. I don't care if you're happy to be referred to as a bleeder, a menstruator or a cervix haver. Most of us are not, it's not how you speak about human beings.

We're now living in a world where women are not allowed to be referred to as women, but are forced to call males women.

The ideology has led to known rapists being locked up in women's prisons, where to the surprise of no one with half a functioning braincell, they raped the female inmates. There's a court case (Judicial Review) to try and stop this ever happening again starting tomorrow.

It leads to sportswomen being cheated out of awards that they've trained all their lives for.

It leads to women who publicly state they believe in biological sex being sacked, sent death and rape threats, and having their home address posted online.

Women talking about their rape, domestic violence, the deaths of their babies and children are being accused of weaponizing their trauma.

Two women campaigners, FGM survivors, were absolutely hounded and racially abused because they used the term FGM. This is apparently transphobic because men and boys can have vaginas and so FGM isn't exclusive to females

It has led to lesbians being sexually harassed by males claiming to be lesbians. Lesbians are being told they should get therapy to get over their penis aversion. So the ideology is hot on homophobia and conversion therapy.

And just a few days ago, it led to the stillbirth charity SANDS excluding the word 'mother' in the name of 'inclusivity'. When bereaved mothers pointed out they want to be referred to as mothers, they were called transphobes, bullies, and accused of 'centring themselves'.

Instead of asking us why we care, try asking yourself why you don't.

This

Not rtft so apologies if this has been said but I was much taken by the comment that your sex is how yiur body is identified on the mortuary slab; gender is what you yourself choose while alive.

I like that because it conforms to my reality. I might tomorrow decide that actually I'm a man (I know it's more complicated than that but just for brevity) but if I am knocked over by the proverbial bus, the pathologist will spot my womb and female bits (and lack of male bits) and record me as female.

What is it about mumsnet and this issue?

I think people on this forum tend to be more aware (for reasons that should be obvious) why sex based services and protections are essential to women’s equality.

At a very basic level, you can’t protect or create equality for women if you can’t recognise sex differences.

This creates a conflict with people who (for various, often understandable, reasons) want to distance themselves from the reality of sex.

Anyone who claims to be ‘kind’ and who is truly concerned about women’s rights and trans rights can understand this.

I can only assume that people who don’t understand the relevance of different services and protections to equality law are lucky enough to benefit from a level of privilege that makes them unnecessary.

@Nocaloriesinchocolate

Not rtft so apologies if this has been said but I was much taken by the comment that your sex is how yiur body is identified on the mortuary slab; gender is what you yourself choose while alive.

I like that because it conforms to my reality. I might tomorrow decide that actually I'm a man (I know it's more complicated than that but just for brevity) but if I am knocked over by the proverbial bus, the pathologist will spot my womb and female bits (and lack of male bits) and record me as female.

My issue with that comment is that I don't believe we can 'choose' our gender. The gender role and expectations of 'women' have been enforced on me for as long as I can remember. All those times I was told that something wasn't 'ladylike' or that it wasn't for girls, or when people have had expectations of me based solely on the fact that I'm female.

I did not choose this and I would very much choose not to have gender forced on me, yet here we are being told that our wanting to have a word to describe people born female, no matter their personality, is classed as 'creating a battle where there doesn't need to be one' - because we don't need a word to describe ourselves? Men commit 98% of sexual crimes, but who cares, because women do it too (although - what's a woman?).

I don't identify with my oppression.

I don't think Perfect wants to actually know, discuss or understand our concerns. I think they're here to be goady and tell us all we're mean etc.

Please do prove me wrong though Perfect and try engaging with posters.

Ok I accept the word choose was er ... badly chosen. Sorry. Can I rephrase to say something like identify as instead?

😁 Sorry nope. Although well done! my question wasn't can you gestate a foetus outside the womb, it was can you if you have no womb. Good loophole though. Womb at conception then removed = pregnant without a womb. I probably do owe you money on a technicality 😁

A conception that occurred while the person had a womb which was then removed, leading to a life threatening medical emergency is a good find! It's kind of the intersex response to the question of biological sex. Yes, it exists but it doesn't alter the reality for the biology and reproductive realities of a species. I don't think it invalidates the point I was making with my post which was a person requires a female reproductive system in order to bear a child.

gender is what you yourself choose while alive

It might be possible to choose a gender identity, however identity is not visible.

The way we are treated depends on other people’s perceptions - that we are male or female, that we confirm or don’t conform to gender expectations. We can’t choose that.

This is one of the reasons that the concept of gender identity harms women.

It all feels Emperors New Clothes to me - eventually people will wake up I think and it's starting to happen, but as you noticed OP, not everyone!

For me, this all comes from an intolerance to men doing "womanly" things and vice versa. Why can't men wear a dress and make-up? It doesn't make them a woman. But somehow some of them think that to do that they have to identify as a female. But they don't.

I believe very strongly that only biologically-born females should do female sport and there should be an intersex category.

I also don't think men should start identifying as women to benefit from scholarships for women etc.

And I also think that there's no way a man will identify as a woman if there is an inheritance at stake that can only go to a man - they do still exist, occasionally.