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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

That's a first. Accused of transphobia. WIBU? Screenshots.

537 replies

DelvingintoInsanity · 27/10/2020 16:55

A group on facebook that I'm in.

Have never been accused of transphobia before and like to think I'm a tolerant and inclusive person. Quite socked and wondering if I am in the wrong here?

Clearly, I'm now close from being banned from the group. Just for context, it's a writing group.

That's a first. Accused of transphobia. WIBU? Screenshots.
That's a first. Accused of transphobia. WIBU? Screenshots.
That's a first. Accused of transphobia. WIBU? Screenshots.
OP posts:
Thread gallery
6
GilbertMarkham · 27/10/2020 21:12

@yourhairiswinterfire

👏👏👏👏👏

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 27/10/2020 21:12

@MrsKoala

I once posted a reply to my cousin on FB about trans and female sports. My husband saw it and went nuclear. Told me he was ashamed and embarrassed to be married to me. He said it was like waking up and realising he was married to someone from the bnp. He blocked me on Facebook and has refused to socialise with me in case I show his clever and cosmopolitan friends/colleagues how embarrassingly uneducated and provincial I am. I am still pretty Shock about it.
Please tell me youre joking

What a complete and utter fuckwit

mir82726 · 27/10/2020 21:17

Gender and sex are 2 separate things. However, being trans doesn't mean that your sex cannot change. You can change your sex after having surgery.

As a side note, the comments on this thread is very nasty and to be honest quite childish.

BrumBoo · 27/10/2020 21:18

@MrsKoala

I once posted a reply to my cousin on FB about trans and female sports. My husband saw it and went nuclear. Told me he was ashamed and embarrassed to be married to me. He said it was like waking up and realising he was married to someone from the bnp. He blocked me on Facebook and has refused to socialise with me in case I show his clever and cosmopolitan friends/colleagues how embarrassingly uneducated and provincial I am. I am still pretty Shock about it.
I'd tell your husband he's the 'all lives matter' to the women's rights movement, and you're embarrassed by his right wing ideology when it comes to women protecting their rights.
Honeyandapple · 27/10/2020 21:20

What kind of healthcare professional 😕.

I've learnt it's just best to nod tentatively or stay silent because no good has come to me from voicing my own opinion on this matter. We get called all sorts if question anything to do with it.

CaraDuneRedux · 27/10/2020 21:20

@persheptions

CaraDuneRedux

No, that's not how a writing group works. That's how literary criticism works. It's very different.

Confused

It's the way writing groups I'm in work - we talk about the usual stuff like characterisation, choice of language, establishing unreliable narrators, etc. But we also talk about meta stuff like "will this plot work?" In fact, I don't see how any aspiring writer can fail to ask themselves questions like "will this plot work?"

And it certainly seems to be how OP's group works.

Since you appear not to have been back through OP's posts, but merely to be basing your opinion on the opening post, what happened in a nutshell was this. A female sci fi writer floated a plot in which she wanted to have pregnant men. Wokebeard said "there's nothing sci fi about that plot because transmen get pregnant in reality." OP pitched in with some comment to the effect that she thought the sci-fi writer wanted to toy with the idea of biology being different in her imagined world. Wokebeard immediately went full on "I know more about biology than you, sex is a spectrum, educate yourself, transphobe..."

Thus not merely smearing OP, but shutting down all discussion of the plot point the original writer wanted to explore.

Why would this not be a reasonable discussion for a writers' group to have?

MrsKoala · 27/10/2020 21:22

Sadly not. People really have drunk the koolaid. I’ve been told it’s the same as eugenics and being homophobic in the 50s. Like, look what similar arguments people had then using wrong science and how they were on the wrong side of history etc. I didn’t think people could actually dispute such concrete facts. But apparently they can. It’s dramatically altered our marriage which I find very sad and shocking really.

DeaconBoo · 27/10/2020 21:22

@mir82726

Gender and sex are 2 separate things. However, being trans doesn't mean that your sex cannot change. You can change your sex after having surgery.

As a side note, the comments on this thread is very nasty and to be honest quite childish.

It's not really clear what you're saying about changing sex as opposed to changing gender... could you clarify? Are you suggesting that trans people need to undergo major surgery in order to be truly trans? That's incredibly offensive.
thereplycamefromanchorage · 27/10/2020 21:22

@mir82726

Gender and sex are 2 separate things. However, being trans doesn't mean that your sex cannot change. You can change your sex after having surgery.

As a side note, the comments on this thread is very nasty and to be honest quite childish.

You can change your sex after surgery - please enlighten me as to how that miracle occurs?
Perfect28 · 27/10/2020 21:23

Lifeinthelastlane does it affect you, specifically?

MissMarplesGlove · 27/10/2020 21:23

You can change your sex after having surgery.

Yeah, if you believe in miracles.

Sex can't be changed.

gamerchick · 27/10/2020 21:25

[quote Hickorydickoryspock]@MrsKoala whaaaat?! Thats awful.
I am trans and your husband sounds misogynistic to be honest with you. Even if he didn't agree with your article he could have calmly discussed it with you. His reaction is pretty dosgusting. I feel like women have a very valid fear of male violence which is being eclipsed here... people are trying to pretend cis women are some kind of supremacist group when they are actually an opressed and understandably afraid group.[/quote]
Please dont cis on here.

RufustheSniggeringReindeer · 27/10/2020 21:26

@MrsKoala

Sadly not. People really have drunk the koolaid. I’ve been told it’s the same as eugenics and being homophobic in the 50s. Like, look what similar arguments people had then using wrong science and how they were on the wrong side of history etc. I didn’t think people could actually dispute such concrete facts. But apparently they can. It’s dramatically altered our marriage which I find very sad and shocking really.
To be honest even if he completely disagrees with you theres no need for him to be a complete wanker about it...

💐

Perfect28 · 27/10/2020 21:26

I'm not ignorant the debates I just don't understand why so many people feel so offended by the lives of others. Are they hurting you? No. So move along.

CaraDuneRedux · 27/10/2020 21:26

Gender and sex are 2 separate things. However, being trans doesn't mean that your sex cannot change. You can change your sex after having surgery.

No. You can produce a visual approximation of the body of the opposite sex with good enough plastic surgery. It's unlikely to be terribly successful - one of the surgeons specialising in phalloplasty in the US reckons that they have an 80 to 90% complication rate, and there was a tragic case in the Netherlands (possibly Belgium) where a transman's botched phalloplasty caused such distress and pain that he eventually opted for euthanasia. Vaginoplasty is a bit more successful, but even then the resulting cavity requires regular dilation, and will "heal up" if left to its own devices.

In no way does this mean the individual has literally changed sex. They do not suddenly acquire the functioning reproductive system of a member of the opposite sex. In the case of phalloplasty, it pretty much means loss of all sexual function.

To describe it as a kind of magical treatment which results in a literal sex change is an appalling lie to tell very vulnerable people who need support and counselling for their body dysphoria. It may be that sometimes, psychologically speaking, surgery is the least bad, most humane treatment. But it doesn't literally create the body of the opposite sex.

DontDribbleOnTheCarpet · 27/10/2020 21:27

@MrsKoala

Sadly not. People really have drunk the koolaid. I’ve been told it’s the same as eugenics and being homophobic in the 50s. Like, look what similar arguments people had then using wrong science and how they were on the wrong side of history etc. I didn’t think people could actually dispute such concrete facts. But apparently they can. It’s dramatically altered our marriage which I find very sad and shocking really.
I'm so sorry. I've put up with a lot of crap in the name of domestic harmony, but even I couldn't stay with a man who refused to socialise with me,or spoke to me like that.
Perfect28 · 27/10/2020 21:27

I'm not ignorant ToThe debates I just disagree with getting worked up over something that makes literally no difference to you. Whatsoever. Move along.

Rosiejim · 27/10/2020 21:28

@MrsKoala what the FUCK? Ditch him. Seriously

DickKerrLadies · 27/10/2020 21:28

If you mean genital surgery, most trans people (understandably!) choose not to go through that. And even if they did, it would not change their sex. Women are not just men without penises and I find it incredibly sexist to say that a male can become a female if he gets his penis removed, or because he doesn't conform to a narrow idea of what men are 'supposed' to be like.

Rosiejim · 27/10/2020 21:28

And also....Flowers

DickKerrLadies · 27/10/2020 21:30

@yourhairiswinterfire

What is it about mumsnet and this issue? Why do you care? Does it affect you? Just leave people alone.

We care because it is affecting women and this is a predominantly female forum.

This mangling of language leads to companies competing with each other to come up with the most degrading terms they can to refer to women. I don't care if you're happy to be referred to as a bleeder, a menstruator or a cervix haver. Most of us are not, it's not how you speak about human beings.

We're now living in a world where women are not allowed to be referred to as women, but are forced to call males women.

The ideology has led to known rapists being locked up in women's prisons, where to the surprise of no one with half a functioning braincell, they raped the female inmates. There's a court case (Judicial Review) to try and stop this ever happening again starting tomorrow.

It leads to sportswomen being cheated out of awards that they've trained all their lives for.

It leads to women who publicly state they believe in biological sex being sacked, sent death and rape threats, and having their home address posted online.

Women talking about their rape, domestic violence, the deaths of their babies and children are being accused of weaponizing their trauma.

Two women campaigners, FGM survivors, were absolutely hounded and racially abused because they used the term FGM. This is apparently transphobic because men and boys can have vaginas and so FGM isn't exclusive to females Hmm

It has led to lesbians being sexually harassed by males claiming to be lesbians. Lesbians are being told they should get therapy to get over their penis aversion. So the ideology is hot on homophobia and conversion therapy.

And just a few days ago, it led to the stillbirth charity SANDS excluding the word 'mother' in the name of 'inclusivity'. When bereaved mothers pointed out they want to be referred to as mothers, they were called transphobes, bullies, and accused of 'centring themselves'.

Instead of asking us why we care, try asking yourself why you don't.

To remind people of what difference this 'literally' makes to women.
CaraDuneRedux · 27/10/2020 21:30

gamerchick - in fairness to hickory, they probably aren't aware of the vexed history of "cis" on here (sorry, you don't say what your pronous are), and I think hickory is, broadly speaking, amenable to dialogue with the gender critical women on here (unlike the ploppers).

hickory - the reason I have a problem with "cis" is (1) it attempts to make women a subset of their own sex and (2) according to the Stonewall definition, it is someone whose "gender aligns with their sex." Since (like a lot of women) I experience gender not as something inside me, but as an oppressive set of stereotypes forced on me from outside, this is in effect to invite me to identify with my own oppression, which I refuse to do.

Rosiejim · 27/10/2020 21:31

@mir82726

“ Gender and sex are 2 separate things. However, being trans doesn't mean that your sex cannot change. You can change your sex after having surgery.”

No. You really can’t. You’re utterly wrong.

Gasp0deTheW0nderD0g · 27/10/2020 21:31

@mir82726

Gender and sex are 2 separate things. However, being trans doesn't mean that your sex cannot change. You can change your sex after having surgery.

As a side note, the comments on this thread is very nasty and to be honest quite childish.

Oh dear. I expect, @mir82726, you will now explain to us which bits are nasty and childish, and why.

What you've said here, meanwhile, is just wrong. Nobody can change sex. No amount of hormone treatment or surgery can change one's chromosomes, nor will the patient end up with a functioning reproductive system of the opposite sex.

Bailey0703 · 27/10/2020 21:33

Why on Earth is it so difficult for so called intelligent humans to not understand the most basic biology in mammals?
If you can give birth you are biologically female. Nothing you can do or say will alter that. Because to give birth you need a uterus. Male of the species do not have a uterus. You also need the female hormones to sustain the pregnancy. Hormones that are simply NOT those found in a male.

However - if you wish to call your self female or male for your own reasons , I have no issue with that. Dress as a female/male behave as a female/male all fine... call yourself a trans woman/man .. if you feel you need a label BUT you are a TRANS woman NOT a woman if born with reproductive organs of a man and vice versa.. ffs it's like everyone outside Mumsnet and Women's Hour are wearing the emperor's new clothes.. or worse - adopted Trumps world reality which is simply NOT real !

No I do not support discrimination against you because of the way you choose to live. You should have the same opportunities in life as all people . However you cannot expect to encroach on the preserve of Woman only areas... eg.. single sex wards, sports, toilets, changing rooms. Personally I believe there should be a 'third way' in these areas..
Male, Female and Trans to stop bullying and intimidation of trans people AND Women. Live and let live but without espousing blatant biological lies.