Blaming Labour

[InsanityRocks]

Time and time again I see here that the only reason people voted for the tories was because 'anti-semite/terrorist/bad dresser Corbyn' AIBU to think that all these people voted for the racist/misogynist/self-serving Johnson knowing he is all these things as all his views come straight out his mouth, yet the anti Corbyn stuff is hearsay from the press/Russian bots/SM etc.

I don't think Corbyn would have made a good prime minister necessarily, he is too passionate, too idealistic. However, for all those saying he should have stepped down: he won more people to join the Labour Party than ever before, there was the beginning of a movement for change, real change. But members of Momentum joined to deliberately sabotage, along with the constant hum of how evil this man is, how dangerous from the right-wing big business and newspaper owners along with a growing feeling of mistrust manufactured by Russian social media destabilisation all conspired to make sure he failed.

We are all hating what is happening in this country now, but for the moment, the best way to tackle it is through socialism and inclusion. People seemed so scared of socialism, is it because it gets confused with communism? For covid and climate change and unemployment and mental health support and education and the NHS and all the other major issues that face us as a society at the moment, we need to work as a team, surely?

In any case, who the heck would anyone blame for Labour losing, except, Labour? They didn't put together a program that people wanted, or in any case they didn't believe they would deliver.

Ultimately I don't think a socialist movement can ever afford to ignore their grassroots local organisations. You cannot be pushing aside their candidates or promoting things on the doorstep that the locals know won't go over.

If the party leadership cadre, or those who see themselves as such, want to do that because they believe that they are "right", they will have to live with the consequences of the decision, which are likely to be loss of votes..

@TomMRiddle How is it straw man? Are you saying that these things haven't been said? Look, you can carry on. You can tell yourself it was all because of Brexit etc.

The fact is that Labour lost in 2017 despite a woeful Tory campaign which included Theresa May not even bothering to turn up for leadership debates, and then had one of their worst losses ever in 2019. Those are undeniable facts. And I think it's because Labour did not listen.

People don't care about identity politics and what fucking pronouns Jeremy Corbyn uses. People don't like being immediately dismissed as racist/bigoted/ignorant by privileged twats in ivory towers because they might have raised concerns about a specific impact of immigration on their area or job. People don't relate to some bloke from Islington who only ever appears to come out of the woodwork to shout sound bites through a loud hailer every now and then and is nowhere to be seen in between.

Why can't people accept that the way that Labour has operated over the last few years has been a fucking disaster and needs to change? And I say all this as someone who has never voted anything but Labour.

Free tuition fees work in almost every other EU country and come at a cost lower than what we have spent on track and trace so far.

It also has a net benefit later.

Again you are failing to articulate which issues Labour didnt listen to.

You are making the mistake of assuming labour seats all voted labour in huge majorities, in many cases the red wall ones had fairly under 50 percent on the vote, some with fairly right majorities for decades.

" How is it straw man?"

Where have you heard me or anyone else say this?

"You can tell yourself it was all because of Brexit"

It was, the data from the election shows this, as does the evidence from the Campaigns, what was the Tories main campaign again? Along with the fact that the election was in fact only called because Boris couldn't get his Brexit through parliament.

"People don't care about identity politics and what fucking pronouns Jeremy Corbyn uses." This wasn't a major part of any of the campaigns, this is the rights little strawman again.

"People don't care about identity politics and what fucking pronouns Jeremy Corbyn uses. People don't like being immediately dismissed as racist/bigoted/ignorant by privileged twats in ivory towers because they might have raised concerns about a specific impact of immigration on their area or job."

Corbyn never did this at all, neither did the Labour party. Again, strawman.

It is interesting that the "Concerns about immigration" are always the same, and no where can they be factually backed up by any research. Funny that, so it is really bigotry

Which bit of the red wall has significant immigration? None of the ones I mentioned above. How can you promise to address issues that don't exist?

"Why can't people accept that the way that Labour has operated over the last few years has been a fucking disaster and needs to change? "

Why have you all avoided the question about what was the difference between 2017 and 2019? What happened in two short years that went from Corbyn's Labour gaining seats to losing them?

Really, the whole " you need to listen to the working class" stuff isn't accurate. Its a revisionist excuse for the fact that Brexit was the single issue voted on in this election.

Working class people really love it when you patronise them 😂😂

Fine. Not doing any inward critical analysis, screeching 'it was all because of Brexit last time', crossing fingers and hoping for the best is definitely the best way to ensure that Labour win the next General election.

I'm out.

(By the way, I know from a campaign video he did that JC's pronouns are he/him )

"Working class people really love it when you patronise them "

Really, what were the Tories offering the working class, other than Brexit?

As said, a lot of the Labour manifesto on employment and jobs addresses the concerns people have been talking about over the last decade. Except for EU immigration, which doesn't have the impacts that is allocated to it.

It was because of Brexit.

Not doing any critical thinking to compare the issues from the 2017 election, and the 2019 one, but coming up with your own reasons that aren't based in fact is far more erroneous.

Of course it was about fucking Brexit. And if Corbyn had given a shit about actually being in office he would have said something coherent on Brexit. Even if it had been for Leave.

If Corbyn had backed leave he would have lost even more votes.

If he backed remain even more in the Northern seats that backed leaving.

The negotiate a deal then put it to the referendum policy was actually fairly sensible considering that.

Again, what was different about 2019 that was different in 2017? Not the leadership, not the manifesto, but Brexit.

It was stupid. I'm a Remainer in a red wall Brexit heartland. That stupid bullshit had no chance.

What chance did backing leave have then?

Labour already lost more votes to the Lib dems over all than they did the Tories.

Backing remain would have had the same effect, they wouldn't have retained the remain voting seats in Scotland.

If you look at the seats lost almost all of them had stonking leave majorities over 55%, many into the 60s.

So what solution was it, back leave fully? What kind of leave?

Ashfield, Natalie Fleet (replacing Gloria de Piero) – Leave vote in 2016: 70.5%
Barrow and Furness, Chris Altree (replacing John Woodcock) – Leave vote in 2016: 57.3%
Bassetlaw, Keir Morrison (replacing John Mann) – Leave vote in 2016: 68.3%
Birmingham Northfield, Richard Burden – Leave vote in 2016: 61.8%
Bishop Auckland, Helen Goodman – Leave vote in 2016: 60.9%
Blackpool South, Gordon Marsden – Leave vote in 2016: 67.8%
Blyth Valley, Susan Dungworth (replacing Ronnie Campbell) – Leave vote in 2016: 60.5%
Bolsover, Dennis Skinner – Leave vote in 2016: 70.4%
Bolton North East, David Crausby – Leave vote in 2016: 58.1%
Bridgend, Madeleine Moon – Leave vote in 2016: 50.3%
Burnley, Julie Cooper – Leave vote in 2016: 66.6%
Bury North, James Frith – Leave vote in 2016: 53.7%
Bury South, Lucy Burke (replacing Ivan Lewis) – Leave vote in 2016: 54.5%
Clwyd South, Susan Elan Jones – Leave vote in 2016: 59.9%
Coatbridge, Chryston and Bellshill, Hugh Gaffney – Remain vote in 2016: 61.2%
Colne Valley, Thelma Walker – Leave vote in 2016: 50.1%
Crewe and Nantwich, Laura Smith – Leave vote in 2016: 60.3%
Darlington, Jenny Chapman – Leave vote in 2016: 58.1%
Delyn, David Hanson – Leave vote in 2016: 54.4%
Derby North, Tony Tinley (replacing Chris Williamson) – Leave vote in 2016: 54.3%

There are 20 of the 60.

Of the 60 only 7 were remain voting places. 6 of those in Scotland, one was Kensington.

But 65% of Labour voters voted to remain.

Well some posters are really really digging in that Brexit was the whole problem. Just ignoring pronoun shit, the quality of JC, the fact the labour party lost women members by the shed full, the antisemitism and the many other points made here in this thread.
Almost patronizing in fact.

"Just ingoring the pronoun shit"

Don't remember it at all being a promoinent part of the election campaign at all.

Antisemitism has been dealt with

And the fact that Labour said they would keep all female spaces.

Again, looking for reasons other than the actual one.

It is interesting that the "Concerns about immigration" are always the same, and no where can they be factually backed up by any research.

I was a bit surprised to read about this meat factory near Blaenau Gwent, Wales - in view of Carol Cadwalladr's interview and TED Talk;

August -
"The coronavirus incident at the Kepak meat processing plant in Merthyr Tydfil has been formally declared over."

"It was announced seven weeks ago that hundreds of staff at the site in the town's Dowlais Top area, just a couple of miles from the border with Blaenau Gwent, were to be tested for coronavirus as there had been 34 cases identified as having links with the site since the end of April."

"Subsequently, the number of Kepak-linked cases rose by almost 100 and workers' households were told to self isolate."

www.southwalesargus.co.uk/news/18641046.merthyr-tydfil-food-plant-coronavirus-incident-declared/

"The processing plant has a large migrant workforce from East Timor, Portugal, Indonesia, the Philippines and Eastern Europe. The worker described how many migrant workers are forced to live in cramped, shared accommodation and have been worried about the risks of contracting the disease."

www.voice.wales/worker-at-merthyr-meat-factory-with-covid-outbreak-says-staff-still-have-no-ppe

"Carole Cadwalladr, a journalist for the UK daily The Observer, followed the referendum and, in the aftermath of the vote, travelled to Blaenau Gwent to interview citizens. The vast majority of these pointed to immigration and an ill-defined need to “take back control” as the underlining reasons for the Leave vote."

"Upon closer scrutiny, however, in Ebbw Vale [Blaenau Gwent] as in other similar contexts across Europe, reality does not match these popular sentiments. Indeed, the real migratory influence in Ebbw Vale is confined to a single Polish woman, as she herself noted to Cadwalladr during an interview. Such data is supported by the last UK census of 2011, which measured a meagre 2.2 per cent of immigrants in Blaenau Gwent."

But fuck it if you want to make it about the pronoun shit?

Why is it so difficult for people to address people how they prefer to be?

In fact, it was the Tories that proposed the self identification (after it was reccomended by Women's and Equalities Comittee in 2016)

For all the rage on here directed at Labour for it, it appears the Tories were in charge and confirming that it would go through. Never mind that the current laws lag behind international human rights standards or anything.

Labour lost seats that they took for granted

Why because they didn’t engage with the people they didn’t listen (not for the first time)

It was a huge shock even John McDonnell admitted they got it all so very very wrong

Aw bless finding one case and then extrapolating it in desperation.

Funny I didn't know the Philippines, East Timor and Indonesia were in the EU either.

The claims also seem to be from one worker, and not backed up.

Hmmmm.

Yet the immigrant population of the area is still very, very small. So can immigration really have the effects claimed?

Nope.

"Labour lost seats that they took for "

Nope. Labour lost seats that mostly had large leave voting majorities.

How did the policies of Corbyn in 2017 ignore them ? Why did they vote a different way in 2019?

Again, I've evidenced my points. See little or no evidence from those making other claims.

TomMRiddle
Aw bless finding one case and then extrapolating it in desperation.

It was the Carole Cadwalladr connection that made it so interesting.

Except she accurately used the data, unlike you.

Again, looking for reasons other than the actual one
I'm not looking for reasons. Labour lost and that's fine with me.
They did offer to keep women only spaces, but when women includes men it's not much of an offer.
And every single time you post about this it comes across as condescending and almost like you are telling us we keep getting the wrong answer. Instead of you listening to us telling you the multitude of reasons why labour lost.
It appears it's not registering with you. We each decided to not vote labour for reasons, those reasons apparently are not good enough.

Not read the full thread but totally agree with the OP. We need radical ideas to tackle COVID, inequality and climate change. Corbyn didn’t communicate these well and Brexit was a major downfall. Doesn’t mean the Labour Party should always stick to the status quo, move further to the right and pretend that the major problems don’t exist.

Well maybe you know better than John McDonnell

Labour did take advantage they would win these seats

Did you not see the news reports over and over again from Labour campaigners saying people just don’t trust Corbyn, people see Corbyn as weak

It wouldn’t have mattered of labours stance was more set (as it flip flopped and ffs a neutral party leader) people did not see Corbyn as someone who could negotiate a good deal for them they didn’t see a good party leader

People rejected Corbyn (and co’s) Labour