Blaming Labour

[InsanityRocks]

Time and time again I see here that the only reason people voted for the tories was because 'anti-semite/terrorist/bad dresser Corbyn' AIBU to think that all these people voted for the racist/misogynist/self-serving Johnson knowing he is all these things as all his views come straight out his mouth, yet the anti Corbyn stuff is hearsay from the press/Russian bots/SM etc.

I don't think Corbyn would have made a good prime minister necessarily, he is too passionate, too idealistic. However, for all those saying he should have stepped down: he won more people to join the Labour Party than ever before, there was the beginning of a movement for change, real change. But members of Momentum joined to deliberately sabotage, along with the constant hum of how evil this man is, how dangerous from the right-wing big business and newspaper owners along with a growing feeling of mistrust manufactured by Russian social media destabilisation all conspired to make sure he failed.

We are all hating what is happening in this country now, but for the moment, the best way to tackle it is through socialism and inclusion. People seemed so scared of socialism, is it because it gets confused with communism? For covid and climate change and unemployment and mental health support and education and the NHS and all the other major issues that face us as a society at the moment, we need to work as a team, surely?

Not particularly no, the free school meals fiasco showed that.

@ssd
Whilst FSM would be ideal, if i'm right they don't offer it during regular school holidays? I'm all for school meals in the holidays for kids who need it, I just struggle to understand why these kids went hungry all the other half terms.

@InsanityRocks

Time and time again I see here that the only reason people voted for the tories was because 'anti-semite/terrorist/bad dresser Corbyn' AIBU to think that all these people voted for the racist/misogynist/self-serving Johnson knowing he is all these things as all his views come straight out his mouth, yet the anti Corbyn stuff is hearsay from the press/Russian bots/SM etc.

I don't think Corbyn would have made a good prime minister necessarily, he is too passionate, too idealistic. However, for all those saying he should have stepped down: he won more people to join the Labour Party than ever before, there was the beginning of a movement for change, real change. But members of Momentum joined to deliberately sabotage, along with the constant hum of how evil this man is, how dangerous from the right-wing big business and newspaper owners along with a growing feeling of mistrust manufactured by Russian social media destabilisation all conspired to make sure he failed.

We are all hating what is happening in this country now, but for the moment, the best way to tackle it is through socialism and inclusion. People seemed so scared of socialism, is it because it gets confused with communism? For covid and climate change and unemployment and mental health support and education and the NHS and all the other major issues that face us as a society at the moment, we need to work as a team, surely?

When people pin something like this on one person, it's not that they are fibbing, but in general that person actually represents a lot more than just a personality.

It seems like it should be a wake up call to people who really believe in socialism, like yourself, that the workers have to a real extent abandoned voting for the party that is supposed to represent them. How can you be socialist if you aren't representing the workers? Somehow, something important is missing. In fact Labour has become the party of the well-off. That's something to chew on.

I'd suggest it's at least two things, maybe three, and they are related.

The most important and key to all the others is that it's always been a tendency within socialism to become estranged from the grass-roots voices of the workers and to instead try to dictate to them what they need, and what they should want. It takes a lot of care to prevent this and particularly a strong local party structure. This is exactly the kind of thing that Momentum and Corbyn, who is associated with Momentum, undermined. They did not listen to what people wanted or back the candidates people chose, and so no wonder they were out of touch. And more than anything, that sense of not listening and "We know what you really ned" pisses off voters.

Specifically though, Labour missed a few boats. British people have never been all that keen on the kind of state socialism where money is transferred from the wealthy to the poor. What most want is the chance to do well, maybe by educating themselves or kids up to a more middle class life, but often by just having good jobs and wages and housing and education and healthcare for working class people. This is not what they understood Corbyn to represent.

Secondly, and closely related, it has always, always, been the role of socialist parties, in order to secure the jobs, wages, etc, to take seriously movement of capital, movement of labour, and protection of industry. The Labour Party has not only abandoned those things decisively, instead preferring a neoliberal/globalist economics, they have said that such concerns are bigoted and racist. You simply cannot criticise voters for not voting for "socialism" when the party itself has abandoned the pillars of socialism.

The third thing is identity politics, which is very much entwined with lack of grass roots engagement as well as the move to neoliberal economics.

Nothing gave these voters any sense that labour would be better for them than the Tories, who at least spoke to their concerns.

Thank you Goosefoot for a very thought provoking post. Some of it I do not agree with, but I am going to take some time and have a serious think about what you've said. I appreciate your thoughts.

I appreciate everyones thoughts on this, even those I disagree with. Many of you have given me food for thought, and some of you are so beautifully eloquent saying the things I want to say but haven't been able to articulate and I am very happy to hear such passion and cleverness. It makes me hopeful, and I was feeling very despondent.

Ahh their "concerns".

Funny how in an election that wasn't defined by one issue in 2017 the concerns of the working class were heard by Corbyn.

It was the Brexit thing that did it in the Red wall constituencies.

The rest of your statement contains major inaccuracies:

"British people have never been all that keen on the kind of state socialism where money is transferred from the wealthy to the poor."

We voted for it consistently throughout the 50s, 60s and 70s, and even to some exent under Blair.

"What most want is the chance to do well, maybe by educating themselves or kids up to a more middle class life, but often by just having good jobs and wages and housing and education and healthcare for working class people. This is not what they understood Corbyn to represent."

This is exactly what Corbybn represented, better public services, better wages, better protection for workers. Its all in the manifesto.

As is claiming that Corbyn's policies were neo liberal, utterly incorrect, they were classic social democrat policies, Nordic style.

Claiming that the Tories stood for something other than rampant neo liberal self interest of the elites is utterly disingenuous.

Another example of how rather than actually looking at the evidence, people just look for what confirms their bias.

The problem with the grass roots stuff from the workers? The trade unions were all pro Corbyn all backed him. Who are they supposed to listen to? The 0 hours contractors? They would have been better off under Labour, actually the working class would have been over all.

But no, you repeat this narrative as much as you like but its bullshit.

Brexit defined this election. Brexit is why the red wall fall.

Listnening to the concerns of the workers in my constituency means listening to people spout shit about immigration, in a constituency that has less than 3 % of the population who are not White British, in an region in which less than 5 % of the population are immigrants, and the vast majority of those are concentrated in 1 city. Yet they all repeat the same bullshit that was said after the Windrush generation, trying to give their bigotry some appeal to reason.

Nope, the Labour party did not abandon the working classes, just wouldn't pander to the idiocy about the EU and immigration.

Brexitwas, at it's most basic, about people having views about movement of labour and movement of capital (which are two sides of the same coin,) and support and regulation of industry.

So it makes zero sense to say that the vote against Labour was about Brexit rather than about those things.

Failing to realise that, and the sneering attitude about peoples "concerns" is what lost them the election.

It's difficult to know what to say about a labour movement that so clearly despises workers.

Except that the concerns about freedom of movement are not really valid. As said they don't actually have any basis in fact.

As if the Tories are going to offer more protectionism for industry, have you read the Economists for free trade stuff backed by Boris et al.

Its hard to know where to begin when you base your arguments in fantasy.

Brexit at its base movement was actually bringung a broad group of grievances under one belt despite the dichotomy of the objectives of each group. Which is why no proposition of what leaving would look like was made.

This is exactly what Corbybn represented, better public services, better wages, better protection for workers. Its all in the manifesto
How was he funding better public services (costing millions), better wages (without losing the jobs to the Far East), better protection for workers ( it's impossible to sack people nowadays - everyone I know works with a skiver).
It's ridiculous to bandy about claims to increase wages, improve the NHS, Blaah, blaah, blaah without giving details of which magic money tree you've discovered to fund it.

He represented Jack shit because he was too unpalatable to ever lead Labour to victory.

I never once saw him take a firm stand on anything, he avoided committing either way.

His name should be in the dictionary as the definition of useless.

How was he fuming it?

Higher levels of progressive tax and increase borrowing which is happening now anyway.

Better wages can be brought I'm with higher minimum wages.

It is not impossible to sack workers now at all. Go ask the working class who have precarious job security.

Funny that the magic money tree was being shaken even before covid eh?
See your arguments are fundamentally flawed.

I'm right, it was Brexit. What did Boris offer other than Brexit? Fuck all.

But yeah blame Labour, spout the revisionist rubbish.

Why couldn't he give a plausible message on Brexit? He should have given a clear alternative picture. I wouldn't have voted for him because he's a antisemitic twat and I despise Brexit. But other people might have. And Labour might have won.

Great posts @Goosefoot.

And 'sneering' is exactly the right word to describe how the Labour Party has been towards its traditional core voters over the last few years.

Of course people can carry on denying all this, they can continue to stick their fingers in their ears and say Lalalala.... Right wing press.... Lalalala... People are too stupid to know what's good for them... Lalalala.... If you don't subscribe to our purity politics you are a thick ignorant bigot and we don't want you anyway.....

Carry on doing that if you want. But it's not going to get Labour back in power any time soon.

Higher levels of progressive tax and increase borrowing which is happening now anyway
Higher tax AND borrowing - great idea. We have increased borrowing now because of covid, prior to that we had austerity because there is no magic money tree, future generations will pay for this poor sods.

Why couldn't be give a plausible message on brexit?

Because of the issue with the northern seats that voted for Brexit and the city seats that didn't. The compromise was supposed to suit it all, in fact 65 percent of Labour voters voted remain, this meant it was a difficult fudge.

Again with the antisemitism slur, not backed up up with evidence.

But hey all of the posts here have been poorly backed nonsense by people looking to blame those not in power for what has been done by those elected.

What victims you are.

Future generations always pay for the spending now. We had austerity but Boris was promising increased spending even before covid.

Austerity implemented how it was, as a choice btw. Not necessity.

No one is sneering at the working classes, labour policies would have been better for them, they had appeal in 2017.

Brexit was the key in this vote.

Which points did Boris listen to that the working class raised?

"People are too stupid to know what's good for them... Lalalala.... If you don't subscribe to our purity politics you are a thick ignorant bigot and we don't want you anyway....."

Here have some more straw for your man...

Corbyn didn't betray the working class, thats not why he lost in 2019
It was a one issue election, its really that simple
Corbyn was talking to Sinn Fien politicians and former prisoners about prison conditions
Like all right wingers, victims
The mural ... wasn't intended to be antisemitic

For someone who's repeatedly accused others of supposition, you claim to know a lot about folks' motivations, private thoughts and behaviour behind closed doors

Which reminds me that you didn't respond to my question as to how you knew who I voted for ... ?

Corbyn was talking to former prisoners and Sinn Fien politicians.

Why would you blame Labour for the failures of the current government unless you want to excuse the vote for the current shit show?

Saying Corbyn betrayed the working class is a way of excusing the reasons for the vote in December.

It was a one issue election. What did the Tories slogan say? How often was it repeated?

What did they offer the working class apart from Brexit?

Oh and I offered a clear analysis of the voting numbers in general and in several red wall constituencies to show it was a one issue election. So not supposition.

The manifesto policies address the things the working classes have complained about, except immigration from some quarters. No betrayal.

The antisemitism allegations against Corbyn himself are incredibly tenuous and not as much fuss was made of senior tories with far more concrete examples. Not supposition

@Caeruleanblue

This is exactly what Corbybn represented, better public services, better wages, better protection for workers. Its all in the manifesto How was he funding better public services (costing millions), better wages (without losing the jobs to the Far East), better protection for workers ( it's impossible to sack people nowadays - everyone I know works with a skiver). It's ridiculous to bandy about claims to increase wages, improve the NHS, Blaah, blaah, blaah without giving details of which magic money tree you've discovered to fund it.

I'm not so sure it's about the money so much as "better jobs".

By which people don't really mean just jobs that pay more, although that's part of it. People want real jobs, real education for the jobs, etc.

A labour platform that doesn't show how that will happen will always be at a disadvantage. Even I think compared to a Tory one, because that's really the point of Labour for many people.

And so better spending on public services doesnt bring better education and better jobs from that? The green industrial strategy brings better jobs too.

How did the tories offer this? How does Brexit bring it?

I voted leave and want to leave. Last thing we needed was scrap the benefit system, a new election and covid19.

Also free tuition fees ? Silly idea