Blaming Labour

[InsanityRocks]

Time and time again I see here that the only reason people voted for the tories was because 'anti-semite/terrorist/bad dresser Corbyn' AIBU to think that all these people voted for the racist/misogynist/self-serving Johnson knowing he is all these things as all his views come straight out his mouth, yet the anti Corbyn stuff is hearsay from the press/Russian bots/SM etc.

I don't think Corbyn would have made a good prime minister necessarily, he is too passionate, too idealistic. However, for all those saying he should have stepped down: he won more people to join the Labour Party than ever before, there was the beginning of a movement for change, real change. But members of Momentum joined to deliberately sabotage, along with the constant hum of how evil this man is, how dangerous from the right-wing big business and newspaper owners along with a growing feeling of mistrust manufactured by Russian social media destabilisation all conspired to make sure he failed.

We are all hating what is happening in this country now, but for the moment, the best way to tackle it is through socialism and inclusion. People seemed so scared of socialism, is it because it gets confused with communism? For covid and climate change and unemployment and mental health support and education and the NHS and all the other major issues that face us as a society at the moment, we need to work as a team, surely?

@Puzzledandpissedoff

The same stupid system that brought Tony Blair 3 election victories

Quite - but then Blair could carry the centrist vote with him, something the Hard Left will never be able to do no matter how much they cry "unfair"

The country has moved steadily to the right since Thatcher - I think I've had to learn to accept that although I don't agree with it. It is unfair (and has been since universal suffrage) that so many people's votes are wasted due to FPTP. It is arguable, for example that if support for UKIP had been reflected in our system, they would have demonstrated how hopeless they were and we may well have avoided even having a referendum, which just like the 1975 one, was about a party split on EU/EEC membership and a leader saying let the nation decide.

FPTP is unfair and outdated as evidenced by how little it is used in the world as a whole.

Jeremy Corbyn was one of the main reasons why Labour were routed at the ballot box. That and Brexit. But it also has to said that Boris Johnson was, and has always been, a winner for The Conservatives.

Raising issues like this, but then ignoring a direct "illuminati" comment aimed at two Jewish MP's or Boris meeting with Bannon who was a BrietBart editor, along with associations to infowars, the AFD, moving the party to be allied with the antisemitic Orban in the EU parliament and many more. Was there a peep? Was there outrage? No. Oh yes and Boris Johnson's openly antisemitic Jewish character and depiction of the Jews controlling the media in his novel? Anything? How about when Johnson allowed antisemitic conspiracies to be published in the Spectator during his time as Editor? Anything?

I can assure you, as an Orthodox Jew and as someone heavily involved with the UK Jewish community, there absolutely was outrage over all of these things.

If you genuinely didn't see "a peep" then you obviously are not Jewish and don't pay the slightest bit of attention to the Jewish community, in which case you need to shut the fuck up about antisemitism.

Do the mainstream media cover Jewish people's concerns more when they're aimed at Labour than at the Tory party? Yes. Does the media and politicians exploit and try to weaponise Jewish people's fears and anxieties? Definitely.

Amazingly it is possible to object to the exploitation of Jewish people as a political tool, and also object to Labour's anti-semitism.

But blame Corbyn, absolve yourselves from what you voted for

And you know who I voted for - how exactly?

Rather than belonging to any "wing" I'm actually another boring centrist; I also firmly believe that any government bears responsibility for what IT does, and that there's no point in blaming "the other lot" for policy decisions they're entrusted to make

What I do blame the Hard Left for, though, is continuing to back an obvious loser and creating a situation where enough voters felt they lacked a credible alternative to the current mob

@Pyewhacket

Jeremy Corbyn was one of the main reasons why Labour were routed at the ballot box. That and Brexit. But it also has to said that Boris Johnson was, and has always been, a winner for The Conservatives.

It was Brexit. If Corbyn had taken the same stance as Swinford he’d have cleaned up the remain vote.

Are we really saying if Labour had a more Boris-like leader last time they'd have done better?
Because having a leader like Boris is one of many reasons I have never voted Tory.

It was Brexit. If Corbyn had taken the same stance as Swinford[sic] he’d have cleaned up the remain vote.
Possibly - but if the red Wall vote went Tory due their support for Brexit that wouldn't have been enough to get Corbyn elected - and the vote would still have been split between Labour and Lib-Dems among remainers voting on a single issue (which wasn't everyone). SOme reaminers even voted Tory.

"Continuing to back an obvious loser" but this wasn't obvious following 2017!

It wasn't just the hard left either he won a huge majority of votes from Labour party members.

So when different Jewish groups came out and said that they didn't think Corbyn was antisemitic, and they were told that they were wrong is this the same?

TomMRiddle you've already proven that you're an anti-semite and don't give a crap about Jewish people, so stop trying to bully and gaslight Jewish Labour members for having genuine concerns.

The vast, vast majority of British Jews believe that Corbyn is antisemitic and was an active danger to the Jewish population of this country.

www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2019/12/british-jews-are-worried-jeremy-corbyn-and-labour-party/603259/

www.survation.com/new-polling-of-british-jews-shows-tensions-remain-strong-between-labour-and-the-british-jewish-community/

www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2019/nov/26/british-jews-corbyn-emigrate

www.thejlc.org/letter_to_jeremy_corbyn

"You haven't been able to explain how Corbyn betrayed the working class like you said. "

Being an unelectable Labour leader betrays the working class.

No one is to blame for the tories being in power, other than those who voted for them.

They knew he was a liar, they knew he was work shy, they knew he paid no attention to the detail of anything and they knew he just wanted the title and didn't really care about the country. And if they didn't know this, they are to blame for there ignorance.

their ignorance

"If you genuinely didn't see "a peep" then you obviously are not Jewish and don't pay the slightest bit of attention to the Jewish community, in which case you need to shut the fuck up about antisemitism."

Except you didn't see the board of deputies condemning it in national newspapers, or it running on the front page of the Jewish Chronicle, nor despite antisemitism having been a far larger problem in the conervative party historically have I ever seen a poll in the Chronicle asking Jewish people if they think its leader is a danger to them. Nor did I see the fact that Johnson has associations with antisemites and has published antisemitic tropes of his own effecting his relationship with the Cheif Rabbi who was one of his biggest supporters.

This is what I mean, plenty of individual jewish people have been concerned about it, and plenty of Jewish communities have said that they do not think Corbyn is antisemite.

It wasn't just the main stream media weaponising it, but to see it given as a reason here is quite galling.

"Some 87 percent of British Jews believe that Jeremy Corbyn—one of two men who could be prime minister in a few days’ time—is anti-Semitic."

This was from a Jewish Chronicle survey taken from 2,000 people. Hardly representative.

The second study was from 787 people,surveyed for the Jewish Leadership Council ( the board of deputies then), again not reliable. Some desperation in that gathering of data then.

"Being an unelectable Labour leader betrays the working class"

What a lot of rubbish, the whole claim earlier was that the policies betrayed the working class.

Now its this supposition. Sad.

but to see it given as a reason here is quite galling.

You find actual Jewish Labour members explaining their own personal feelings and fears about antisemitism "galling"? Really?

You're obviously very invested in dismissing and gaslighting Jewish posters. Why is that, other than flat out anti-semitism?

A lot of people voted Conservative because of Boris Johnson. He had the same draw with the London Mayoral elections and he'll win the next election too, whether he wants another term is another question.

Nope. Nice Trumpism btw. I didn't say policies. I said person.
In the world of grownups, the personality and track record of the leader matters.

"You find actual Jewish Labour members explaining their own personal feelings and fears about antisemitism "galling"? Really?"

Nope not at all. But I do find focusing on the Labour party as a source of antisemitism, and it being given by many people ( not just Jewish ones) as a reason for voting against Corbyn as galling. The Jewish community was split on Corbyn over many things, and as said there were far more blatant examples among senior Tories that attracted none of the criticism from prominent sources.

Compare JRM's illuminati comment to JC commenting on a picture of a mural in 2012.

In no way am I gaslighting Jewish posters, I've pointed out the inconsitencies in the claims and the inaccuracies in the data used to back many of them up.

I've also questioned why the uber conservative board of deputies was so opposed to Corbyn and drove this issue which was then weaponised by the right wing press.

None of this is antisemitic, but then it appears that even not to agree with anyone who is Jewish about something being antisemitic is an offence here.

It strangely isn't the same for black people and others and their experiences of racism.

"In the world of grownups, the personality and track record of the leader matters."

So why was JC able to gain so many seats and such a large percentage of the vote in 2017 then? In the world of grown ups the track record is taken into consideration remember?

Although your arguments are poorly made supposition and you never back it up, you are also fond of name calling. Like children.

The Jewish community was not particularly split on Corbyn. But thanks for explaining things with no personal experience. That's so welcome and helpful. It's not like Jewish people have any experience of having their experience ignored, downplayed and trivialised.

Please point out where I have been antisemitic?

I didn't deny there was antisemitism in the Labour party, I said it had been weaponised.

I denied Corbyn was antisemitic, but then so have lots of Jews and Rabbis, are they antisemitic too?

I have said that there was a reason why this issue was highlighted and driven to the extent that it was, and why the same issues in the Tory party are ignored. Again not antisemitic.

. "But thanks for explaining things with no personal experience."

Who said I had no personal experience? I know for a fact that there are plenty of people in the Jewish community, not those affilaited with the BOD who didn't think that Corbyn was antisemitic. There were groups who hosted him to Passover dinners, other signed letters, my own friends and relatives that are Jewish agreed.

So thanks for explaining to me without actual knowledge of my own experience.

What danger did Corbyn pose to Jewish people in the UK? Btw.

The Jewish community was not particularly split on Corbyn. But thanks for explaining things with no personal experience. That's so welcome and helpful. It's not like Jewish people have any experience of having their experience ignored, downplayed and trivialised.

This, exactly.

It strangely isn't the same for black people and others and their experiences of racism.

Oh please, white people try to dismiss, contradict, and overrule black people when they try to discuss their experiences of racism absolutely all the time. I'm also biracial and less than two weeks ago I had a bunch of MNers lining up to tell me that I was engaging in "identity politics" for objecting to someone posting the N word in full at me because they were angry that I defended Meghan Markle, and "well actually I have a friend who's black and she disagrees with all this BLM nonsense" and "not all black people think racism is a problem, are they all racist too?"

It's racist to do it to black people and it's racist to do it to Jewish people. If you aren't a minority then don't tell people from that actual minority group that they're wrong about racism, and don't use bad faith tactics to dismiss and undermine their experiences and opinions.