To be angry with DH, or am I overreacting?

[RockWrass]

Nc as I like my other username and don't want to be outed!

For context:
DD is 9 months. She's in a brilliant routine of
5.30pm - tea followed by bath/teeth/moisturiser/clean nappy/PJs
6.30 - 7pm - watches In The Night Garden/plays/reads books
7ish - breastfed
7.15 - put in her sleeping bag, read a final story
7.30 - asleep in her cot.

When following this routine, she generally wakes for a feed at 12ish, I bring her into our bed where she sleeps through until 5ish, has a quick feed and back to sleep until 7.30am. DH and I know that deviating from this routine means zero sleep and he, being self employed and WFH, knows this routine inside out.

Yesterday I had to be out of the house at an appointment. I left at 4.30pm and was back at 6.20pm.

Walked in and she was fast asleep on DH "having a nap." Apparently she was grouchy so he thought she needed a sleep before bed and bounced her until she went off at 6pm

She wasn't in her sleeping bag, she'd not had any milk (there is a stash in the freezer DH could have given her). DH was really pleased with himself. 10 mins later she woke up. I tried to feed her, put her in her bag, get her back off to sleep but after her power nap she was wide awake.

I then felt she was wet. Took her PJs off to find her nappy on back to front and it had leaked.
DH then said he'd fed her tea at 5pm, half an hour before she usually has it, as he thought she was grumpy. It later transpired that he'd not brushed her teeth or moisturised her (she's prone to eczema so that's important!).

He maintained that she was really grouchy and grumpy and he felt stressed. I asked him why he thought this was and he said, "no idea, I was on FaceTime to ILs the whole time and they didn't know either." I asked how long he was on FaceTime to them - he checked his call log - almost 30 mins in total, between 4.30pm and 6pm, when he put her off to sleep.

I was really cross and suggested that perhaps she was grouchy because, instead of interacting with her, reading with her and playing, he just shoved a camera in her face.

She then didn't go off to sleep until 10pm and woke up every 1hr 30. Who was up with her all night.... me.

I'm so angry because, IMO, for the 2hrs I was out, DH couldn't provide the minimum care for our daughter, probably because he was too busy playing Disney dad and showing off to ILs about what a brilliant dad he is.

We've had a huge argument and he's stormed off out for the day. He feels I'm overreacting. I feel really upset because, on the rare occasion I need to do something, I can't count on him to care for DD properly.

So - nest of vipers, reassure me that what I'm feeling is valid... or am I massively overreacting here?

Yeah, indeed @RockWrass, it’s not like WE need it pointing out that a nappy needs changing.

It’s the Female is Default Parent thing again, isn’t it?

Unless your H does not actually defecate? I’m assuming that he knows that the rest of us do? Nobody is THAT stupid

He just doesn’t WANT to.

If there is anything positive to draw from this love, it’s that you’re having this conversation now, when your dd is still tiny.

Don’t let this opportunity pass without making a real change to the dynamic.

Communication is key, and your h does need to know what is set in stone (like nappies. food, skin, teeth bath etc) and what can be flexed (the time it’s given) He needs to understand that if she’s tired it’s ok to start the bedtime wind down earlier and do more stories or night garden or whatever, but just to throw everything familiar out of the window is never going to calm her down. She’s looking for reassurance first and foremost

I can’t really understand why Cheetahs thought it’s was worth calling you a martyr repeatedly through this thread, or why they think withholding sex or dinner is good advice.

You’re not a martyr. Best of luck

@RockWrass

Pumper, Cheetah - I agree with you both. Yes I should voice that DH should share the load but equally, he is also a parent. He should just do it.

One thing that strikes me in these kinds of threads is that a woman will assume the lions share of everything baby related, but understandably because they ate on maternity leave.

So they live and breathe it. They have their routine and know their baby inside out.

But then they expect the father, who has really only dipped in and out due to work, to suddenly operate at same speed and efficiency as them.

*Found another one for a)

She's playing martyr cause she's letting him get away with it.*

So you mean literally not calling her a "martyr" is that right?

You realise that "playing", "acting", "pretending" is not actually being. So please show me again where I called her that.

Thought you might try that with b), you realise that wet nappies and pooey nappies are both dirty right?

I can't even with you! It would be funny if you didhn't keep twisting and trying to infer things that are not there to fit your agenda.

Whereas all she has to do is talk to her husband and share learning to be parents is great. Doing it together is better.

So you did say everything I said you had, and then tried to lie about it.

According to you she also has to accept that she’s biologically more willing to look after the baby, and accept that she’s at fault, not her DH. So she probably won’t pay much attention to your posts, or I hope she doesn’t, because they are idiotic and misogynistic. And whatever the word for ‘and patronising to fathers’ is.

@Sodamncold I completely agree with you, except for the fact that I genuinely don't care how efficient or how speedy DH is at completing X task. My issue is that tasks X, Y, Z weren't completed and her routine was out of whack and essentially I paid the price for it. If it takes DH 10 minutes to ensure her eczema is properly medicated, I really don't care. As long as it's done.

@RockWrass

Pumper, Cheetah - I agree with you both. Yes I should voice that DH should share the load but equally, he is also a parent. He should just do it.

But has he been able to? If there is a “right way” then it may well just be easiest to sit back and let you do it.

FWIW it was extremely hard to let my partner do things his way when I thought it wasn’t the most efficient or effective way but I knew if I wanted to 50/50 parent he had to be equally responsible and have an equal voice & an equal share of the good and bad tasks.

So you did say everything I said you had, and then tried to lie about it. Except I didn't lie and you inferred your own meaning from the words I said. I very rarely lie and definitely don't need to on MN. You don't like what I have to say you scroll on by (or do a "PumpthePumper" your choice). Thanks again.

The OP seems to be sorted now, as I have now caught up but you're still here. Battling the odds. The thing is we both agree the Dad needs to fix up. You seem to go straight from 0-Divorce very quickly.

I believe a marriage might take a little bit more work than one day getting things wrong.

So I'm misogynistic and patronise fathers, so I'm an equal opportunties hater of people by the sound of things. For once on this thread there may be truth to what you said about me. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

OP sorry for hijacking your thread I have kind of enjoyed Pumps twists and turns.

Your words and opinions are there for everyone to read @Faultymain5

You can be misogynistic and patronising to fathers. I don’t know why you’d think they’re opposites. You think it’s a woman’s biological need to clean dirty nappies for their newborn (misogynistic) but not men’s (patronising). Your theory is still stupid, but you know that.

Op, I was you, getting no sleep because DH couldn't manage the routine, or didn't have the 'skill' or didn't know how... 10 years later, I reached the end ofy tether after our s
2nd child and we are now separated. Not because he's not a good man, not because he didn't work hard or do a lot of stuff around the house that I couldn't, but because he left all the mental load up to me, lways. Towards the end, I told him I was drowning, I was depressed, I couldn't cope with all the house stuff, kids stuff, work, trying to have some kind of social life... He asked me to write him a list. After 10 years.
Nothing could be a bigger turnoff than having an unequal partner. In addition though, I let myself be the martyr, I silently fumed, I grew resentful and gave up asking for help.
I'd get on op of it now, tell him to step up, do his bit, stop being helpless so you'll step in.
Doing 100% of stuff with the odd break when he has the kids is so, so much easier than what I was doing before. I don't feel let down, unsupported, like a parent to 3 children... I am happier, but I'm under no illusion, I probably would have been happier and life much simpler if I'd said something to him years before. Or I'd have left when my children were younger and it would have been less complicated and caused less damage financially..
I resented having to say it, I wanted him to just get on with it, as I did... But if I could go back I'd still have said something.

Here we go again.

Can you find me where I said "you can't be misogynistic and patronising to fathers"? Just locate that sentence for me.

Can you find me where I said they were opposites, can you find that sentence for me? If not then what the f*ck are you still arguing about? I literally agreed with you. Take the mfking win!

By the way it's not my theory, but it's an extract of a paper I read so long ago that you are right it could have been turned on its head. I mean if you know me the word "imperative" is not a part of my daily parlance. Just to note, this is not a backtrack of an earlier viewpoint, just an awareness that thoughts/findings on these things do change over time. (I'm sorry but I think that was patronising, but didn't know how to get you to not twist what I was saying, which you will anyway).

@Faultymain5

Here we go again.

Can you find me where I said "you can't be misogynistic and patronising to fathers"? Just locate that sentence for me.

Can you find me where I said they were opposites, can you find that sentence for me? If not then what the f*ck are you still arguing about? I literally agreed with you. Take the mfking win!

By the way it's not my theory, but it's an extract of a paper I read so long ago that you are right it could have been turned on its head. I mean if you know me the word "imperative" is not a part of my daily parlance. Just to note, this is not a backtrack of an earlier viewpoint, just an awareness that thoughts/findings on these things do change over time. (I'm sorry but I think that was patronising, but didn't know how to get you to not twist what I was saying, which you will anyway).

Here:

So I'm misogynistic and patronise fathers, so I'm an equal opportunties hater of people by the sound of things. For once on this thread there may be truth to what you said about me. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.

Although you’re right, I don’t know why I’m arguing with someone who doesn’t know what they’re talking about. Or someone with shitty, misogynistic views who couldn’t even wait until they’d read the thread before bursting in to have a pop at a struggling mother.

The problem here is that he obviously hadn't had much experience- why?

Im a father and shared the bedtime routine from day one, so it didn't matter who went out - our daughter had exactly the same experience.

Even if a woman breast feeds, the entire care of a baby is not her sole responsibility, with the father to step in with comedy/ amateurish results.

I don't care who's working or self employed or 'tired'..if there's two of you it's a joint responsibility.

OMG

*Here:

So I'm misogynistic and patronise fathers, so I'm an equal opportunties hater of people by the sound of things. For once on this thread there may be truth to what you said about me. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.*

Wow, this is me agreeing with you. I literally said I'm an equal opportunities hater of people. I said that, I owned it. Like I said I don't lie. How is that opposite to what you said? How? Thank you for proving my point. You see things that aren't there. And now that is literally out there for people to see thank you @Pumperthepumper your the best.

@Faultymain5

OMG

*Here:

So I'm misogynistic and patronise fathers, so I'm an equal opportunties hater of people by the sound of things. For once on this thread there may be truth to what you said about me. Even a stopped clock is right twice a day.*

Wow, this is me agreeing with you. I literally said I'm an equal opportunities hater of people. I said that, I owned it. Like I said I don't lie. How is that opposite to what you said? How? Thank you for proving my point. You see things that aren't there. And now that is literally out there for people to see thank you @Pumperthepumper your the best.

I honestly don’t even think you know what you’re arguing about at this point.

@Pumperthepumper Oh I see what you are doing. I believe this is the very definition of gaslighting a person.

Rather than admit that you thought I was disagreeing with you, you are going to hold strong and pretend that I'm crazy. My closing words for you would be. Not everyone doesn't mean what they say. Sometimes the words that are said are the words that are meant. Just because your characterisation of me wasn't flattering doesn't mean I couldn't see any truth in it, so I 'graciously' agreed with you. I know you were not expecting that but it's still true.

so OP - why has he never been holding her for an hour or so and then just taken her to change her? Why has he never done a shift with her while you caught a nap? Looking back at my own children I can't see how it ever could have happened that DH didn't have to do the nappy at some point. What if you were pumping milk, having a wee yourself, in the bath? Does he just leave the nappy til you get back? SO MANY QUESTIONS

[quote Faultymain5]@Pumperthepumper Oh I see what you are doing. I believe this is the very definition of gaslighting a person.

Rather than admit that you thought I was disagreeing with you, you are going to hold strong and pretend that I'm crazy. My closing words for you would be. Not everyone doesn't mean what they say. Sometimes the words that are said are the words that are meant. Just because your characterisation of me wasn't flattering doesn't mean I couldn't see any truth in it, so I 'graciously' agreed with you. I know you were not expecting that but it's still true.[/quote]
Add ‘google definition of gaslighting’ to your to do list. What I did was point out the things you said. What you did next was to pretend that’s not what you meant.

You’re also a bully - as I said, you couldn’t even wait to read until the end of the thread for chipping in to have a go at the OP. So maybe take some time to work out 1) why you have those shitty misogynistic views and 2) why you feel the need to have a pop at a struggling mother.

@Pumperthepumper
Definition: manipulate (someone) by psychological means into doubting their own sanity.

I'm claiming that's what you did, because, well you did.

What I did was point out the things you said. What you did next was to pretend that’s not what you meant.

No what you did was poitn out the things I said, and put your own inference on them which is not what was said. At all. You still cannot point to actual sentence where I called OP a Martyr, you still can't point to sentences where I said you mischaracterised me. But you copy my words and say that's what I meant. To you that's what I meant, but since I said them. What I said means a little bit more than what you think you read.

I don't think you are right to decide someone is a bully when they admit they didn't read the thread but are willing to change their mind by the time they do because they are shocked by one particular statement, if that is the case, then many Mumsnetters are bullies. And if that does make me a bully I'm willing to apologise for it, but I've seen bullying for real and that wasn't it. This time not agreeing with that characterisation (just for clarity).

Maybe you need to take some time out and think about how you approached this whole thing. Your 0-divorce attitude possibly isn't the best place to start giving advice from. But you are right (wow twice in one thread), we should all look at why we come to the conclusions we come to. And take stock.

I’m not reading any more of your garbage, you are arguing with yourself. Stop tagging me.

I would have been furious too.

I wanted to be a laid back routine free mum, dd however had other ideas and craved routine - still does and she's nearly 20!

I've cared for many babies over the years and this is how it goes, some babies are easy going, some like a little routine but are a bit flexible, and some really don't cope well with a change to their usual routine and need things done to a schedule or they're a fractious nightmare!

Absolutely ridiculous that from the sounds of things 9 months in he doesn't regularly (if ever!) change her nappy, prep and feed her meals etc

Partly your fault op but I suspect more likely is he's been MORE than happy to "let" you have main responsibility inc mental load for the baby purely because you're the woman!

"I'll get in trouble if I do it wrong so I won't do it at all" is a total cop out!

Time for a change!

He needs to spend MUCH more time caring for dd, WITHOUT you prepping or doing things for him, supervision at first for DDs benefit and health but NOT doing it for him.

Aside from bf he is perfectly capable of doing EVERYTHING ELSE.

He's a grown ass adult more than capable of changing a nappy correctly, making and feeding her meals, brushing her teeth, caring for her skin...

My ex -who had his faults - shared parenting with me of dd from the start inc night duties, shitty nappies and early mornings! And he’d never even held a baby before her!

You both need to change out of the current pattern in terms of he needs to be doing, and allowed to do, a lot more.

I also notice he pissed off after your argument, so nicely managed to engineer a day to himself.

Yea that's really out of order!

My husband used to work long hours & often it would be as easy to leave stuff ready as to explain iyswim.

A decent, capable husband and father would need neither stuff prepped for them NOR an "explanation" for how to care for their own child! Having a penis doesn’t render you incapable of baby care!

All the men in my family (and they’re hardly the most enlightened bunch) managed to do so, and I’m going back to grandfathers who served in wwii! 1 had the reputation of being able to soothe any fractious child within reach he had such a calming demeanour.

Sounds like he offered and was told no

He offered half heartedly at best from sounds of things!

He's never changed a pooey nappy because he didn't get any paternity leave total non excuse!

There's evenings and weekends too, plus he's wfh?! NO WAY she's not had a shitty nappy over a whole weekend!

My dad used to do more nappies than my mum! He had a knack for doing it really quickly and one handed (as can I - we think similar hands, long fingers help)

Admittedly first few times till he got used to the smell my ex resorted to using a swim nose clip! But he soon abandoned that and just got on with it! To be fair her first few were quite stinky for some reason


When my own dd had colic she'd really only sleep for ex he seemed to be able to get her into a position she liked whereas my boobs would get in the way of that

He's not sorry that's bad!

Ex's mum (or dad for that matter!) would not have bailed him out either! I’m wondering what the hell your in laws were playing at not telling him to get off phone to them
and see to baby!

Maybe one thing you could do is ask them to help him learn and "get practice" changing nappies etc as he needs to know for when you return to work? Rather than criticising them for bailing him out (simply as it serves no purpose) but "recruit" them to your side of things?

He's holed himself up in his office.

Jesus! So he's come home, seen you're knackered and dd knackered after a shit day due to HIS fuck ups and he's STILL not taking any responsibility?! I'd be livid!

I don't expect him to do "night shifts" as such especially when he's working

I’ve seen this a LOT on mn and it’s bullshit!

YOU are on duty too op - almost 24/7 there’s absolutely NO
reason why he cannot and should not share the load on nights ESPECIALLY when he hasn’t got work the next day anyway!

My ex was army, in a role where he really had to be on the ball! Same true of my father and grandfather. There’s a poster on mn who responds with equal incredulity to these comments who’s dh is ACTUALLY a brain surgeon and does his fair share of night tasks with their dc, there’s another who is iirc an a&e dr themselves who does their share of nights with dc.

Your dh has from sounds of things a regular mon-fri desk job and he’s wfh?! NO EXCUSE To not step up! Plus the LAST thing you need is him expecting you to STILL do almost everything AND be back at work - which frankly at this point sounds a distinct possibility with him!

Sleep deprivation is part of early parenthood, he needs to suck it up!

I bf until dd was nearly 10 months and couldn’t express (not everyone can) again NO EXCUSE for him not doing his share of all the other tasks involved in caring for HIS baby.

I do feel really down and despondent at the moment. Things haven't been great between us for a while and honestly this is the cherry on the cake. I’m not at all surprised you’re probably knackered!

I knew he'd rock up in time for tea.

Let me guess you're cooking too?

Well observed!

You unfortunately can’t leave baby with him while at parents BUT in your shoes I’d definitely be making clear to him you EXPECT to return to a clean and tidy home, including but not limited to the laundry being done and not left lying for your return! (Why do I get the feeling this arse will live on takeaways and not even do the dishes?)

”Why would I remember the moisturiser when I'm not the primary carer?" wow!

I’d be replying to that “because not doing so will cause your 9 month old dd to be in pain/discomfort and possibly getting an infection that could make her even worse and may well take weeks/months to clear”

I’d be showing him some pics and even video of babies with untreated/bad eczema. I have eczema as does dd, ex’s family are luckily unaffected but he didn’t need it pointed out in words of one syllable that it’s a shit thing to not treat a BABY that suffers from this!

And yes one day/treatment CAN have painful consequences if you suffer badly. I’ve cursed my own self upside down when I’ve skipped a moisturising and then ended up really sore that night.

Nappy on wrong on a baby with eczema is also a neglectful and cruel thing to do and can have painful consequences!

I’m afraid I WOULD be being blunt and saying “

your poor parenting could well have caused your child a lot of pain

At this point I’m wondering if that’s at least partly why she was upset? What state is her skin in?

Actually I’m sorely tempted to suggest he try sleeping with a small piece of sandpaper under his armpit or behind his knees or in his groin crease! Then he might have SOME understanding of living with eczema when it flares or is untreated!

Lack of sleep can also impact eczema.

That element has made me really angry on behalf of that tiny baby!

I agree his response to having messed up is what’s most concerning!

It's his attitude that's the problem, not his skillset. agreed

Case in point:

because he is expecting an apology

I mean WTAF!!!!

her nappy was "human error" that just makes him sound thick! YES HIS ERROR! HIS FUCK UP!

He did good good grief! He really really did NOT actually

Unfortunately I agree that the apology you want AND DESERVE isn’t going to happen. So ignore that this time BUT he really NEEDS to understand that for his dds HEALTH there are certain things he cannot neglect to do, for YOUR health you need to let him do a LOT more care of dd, supervising initially, HE needs to stop being a lazy selfish dick and do what his dd NEEDS as her other equal parent.

I fear he won’t step up and it’s that - not posters on mn - that will be the death knell for your marriage. Because if you think you’re knackered now wait till you’re at work and dd is on verge of toddlerhood! If he’s still not stepping up you’ll be utterly exhausted! Frankly if that happens you may be better off on your own.

And I agree in all likelihood if they split he’ll inveigle his mother/sister or some other unwitting woman into caring for the baby! OR he’ll do a shit job and she’ll be suffering.

Most nine-month-olds are consuming largely milk staggering the lack of knowledge among some on the thread - milk contains a LOT of sugar, which can also rot teeth. Brushing teeth as soon as they appear with appropriate products has been recommended for eons!

The OP's husband is sulking bc he wanted applause for having a dick and keeping the baby alive

Sums it up very well!

Pleased to report that DH managed to bath, do teeth, moisturise, clean nappy and PJs whilst I cleaned up after dinner tonight with minimal fuss. step in the right direction but don’t let him slide back into bad habits.

I think alternating nights is an excellent idea!

Also start at least on “non school nights” he does some night wakings too AND you take turns getting a lie in at weekends

OP you fail to see that you are the default parent here and you've let the dad get away with murder. If you want to think it's normal he's never changed a pooey nappy go right ahead. But let me ask you this, what would you think of yourself if you had never noticed and took charge of your baby's pooey nappies in the morning or evening before and after work, or on the weekends. It just wouldn't have happened.

Yikes, this thread has become vile.

I stand corrected about nightly tooth brushing for a nine-month-old - although there is no way that lactose in breast milk rots the teeth, only added refined sugar does that. Skeleton remains show tooth decay didn’t start until we started to eat sugar. No one brushed their teeth for most of human history, much less their little babies’ teeth.

Of course reading is important for babies. I read to mine all the time and took books everywhere. All I was suggesting was that a bedtime story wasn’t essential for a nine-month-old. It’s more of a winding down activity for an older child.