Funeral- uninvited but have to pay

[jenjen99]

Hi All,
My husband died last month. We were separated, not divorced, and on good terms. Due to Covid it was a maximum of 15 guests. His father said I was not invited, 'it's family only'. Obviously doesn't understand definition of 'wife'. I didn't want to argue as it's a difficult time anyway and i can find my own way to say goodbye. However, as I'm the sole beneficiary of his estate I've just learnt that I'm liable for funeral costs, despite having no say in arrangements and not being invited. Does anyone know if this is legally correct?

TIA

Can you correct the coroner?

Getting back to the OP’s query....

You cannot be held legally liable for the funeral costs.

The bill from the funeral home will presumably be sent initially to your ex FIL?
Leave him to deal with it as he entered into a contract with the funeral directors, not you. It’s up to him to request the monies from the estate from you but he can’t chase you for the outstanding balance. There is no legal obligation on your part.

However whoever registered the death has told lies if you are not named in the death certificate.

Noone gets named on the death certificate except the dead person, the person who informed the registrar (which can actually be pretty much anyone, in this case the fil) and the coroner if they were involved. There isn't a place for 'next of kin' etc.

in terms of practicalities and how this works - yes, the costs can be recouped by the estate but that can take months because it’s tied up in the administration of the estate. Funerals do not wait for that.

Also untrue.

You can pay for the funeral out of the estate before probate is sorted. Also, most banks will pay a funeral bill from a deceased person's account directly to the funeral director.

Noone should have to pay up front with their own money unless the estate can't cover it (and even then you can get grants etc from the council).

But that is only the funeral. It does not apply to flowers, cars (just the hearse), wake, drinks, hotels etc.

The missing information here is whether there was a will, and if so, whether the op was named as executor. If no will, while she would be sold beneficiary as the legal wife, she would not be executor. Because when you die intestate someone has to apply to the court to be named as the administrator of the estate, there is no executor.

If she did not apply, she is not the administrator and has no way to access the estate money anyway.

The missing information here is whether there was a will, and if so, whether the op was named as executor. If no will, while she would be sold beneficiary as the legal wife, she would not be executor. Because when you die intestate someone has to apply to the court to be named as the administrator of the estate, there is no executor.

That's not true if there is hardly any money in the estate. OP can probably go to the bank, prove who she is and receive the money.

Your FIL will get the funeral directors bill as he went there and arranged the funeral so signed a contract with them. They will chase him for the money, no-one else. He has to pay and some start threatening bailiffs quite soon after the funeral, long before probate could be sorted.

Funeral costs are taken from the estate BEFORE any beneficiaries receive money. He's paying, not you.

Grobagsforever she's said that the estate won't cover the cost of a funeral - maybe half.

Why is it the posters most determined to scold the OP on any thread are always the same ones who are incapable of reading not only the thread but the bare minimum of the OP's posts?

@jenjen99

Edit: his estate was very small. I doubt it would cover a funeral. Maybe half

@jenjen99 Sorry for your loss. It is so sad in these cases that families take sides, and that can get unpleasant.

Of course you want to say 'Goodbye' to your Husband.Could you not sit discreetly at the back?

I was lucky to be allowed to my ex FIL's funeral... and would want to go to my Ex Husband's too, if he should pre decease me.

But the last thing anyone needs is unseemly scenes at the Crem or graveside.

His parents are probably devastated at the loss of their 'child'.

A very sad situation.

People here keep talking about probate but IME of two relatives dying, probate only applies if there is no one directly alive to inherit their assets.

When my father died there was no probate because all his assets passed to my mother (he did have a will.)

When my MIL died, we did probate ourselves as DH was named as executor and his FIL was dead already. So the sale of her house, plus savings, plus all her other assets , were added up for inheritance tax purposes.

BUT if someone dies and has a living spouse, there is no probate as such IMO because you are not winding up an estate.

My mother was able to use the death certificate of my father to access money and take control of anything that was still in his name.

One thing that DOES come up on this thread is who pays for a funeral .
My parents had little in savings but their one concern all their lives was that they had enough for 2 very simple funerals.

In the event, we did my father's as cheaply as possible- his wish- and it came to around £2500. The most expensive part was the cremation - £650- the cost of storing the body (no room at the hospital mortuary), the coffin (the cheapest available) and the hearse.

You can apply for benefits to pay for a funeral if you cannot find the money.

OP.. if you come back and give a bit more information someone might be able to help you.

Is there a will?
Is there a solicitor dealing with this estate?
Who is the executor?
Are there really no assets other than enough money to pay for half of the funeral?
Did you own a home jointly with him? If so, then half of this home (depending on who is named on the mortgage etc) is part of the estate.

Who has told you that you are liable for the funeral costs? The FIL?

Whatever you do, do not hand over the total amount of money that the funeral cost. It is up to FIL, or whoever signed the contract with the funeral director, to pay for this and then claim back the money from the estate. If there is not enough money to cover the entire cost then that's tough luck, he will have to pay the rest.

Did he have any life insurance or money in a pension fund - was it in “trust” and did he nominate who his beneficiaries were to be?

Did he have any assets such as a car, expensive jewellery etc?

@Belladonna12

Speak to the solicitor who is dealing with the estate. You need more information here.

If it's a very small amount of money, there probably isn't a solicitor dealing with the estate. It will be OP's job to pay any debts off.

You can't inherit debts - unless they are joint debts that the survivor retains liability for.

Depends on how far you want to take this, but I'd be looking into whether or not you've got a case to recover some of the estate from your father in law....

If the will had specific wishes regarding the funeral arrangements, these should be paid for from the estate, anything that you think is superfluous or additional I think should be covered by whoever arranged it. It can't be correct that your FIL has spent all of your inheritance (if indeed there were to be any remaining) without your consent.

You can't inherit debts - unless they are joint debts that the survivor retains liability for.

There could also be problems here because they were separated but not divorced. Op needs legal advice.

Your Father in law cannot organise the funeral unless he is next of kin. Call the funeral director and let him know. You need to contact the council as you need the death certificate.

You can't inherit debts - unless they are joint debts that the survivor retains liability for.

I didn't mean that OP would have to pay them out of her own pocket. I meant she is responsible for paying them out of the estate rather than a solicitor if there is only a small amount of money in the estate but enough to pay debts.

@Sparticuscaticus

Sorry Even in their 3 you're allowed 30 at funeral not 15 , in England

Actually not true in all cases. The crematorium in our town has reduced to 15 and my DP works for a local funeral company and has to deal with all the families raging about it being unfair .. and quite a lot of funerals are now booking in to the next town for exactly this reason.

So although the overall rule might be 30, there are regional variations at the discretion of the individual establishments.

People here keep talking about probate but IME of two relatives dying, probate only applies if there is no one directly alive to inherit their assets.

This is incorrect.

Banks may require probate, they all have their own rules. For example, Nationwide require probate if the deceased had over £50k in accounts with them, Coop is £30k, Aegon always require it - etc.

If all money was held in joint accounts you probably won't need probate.

My dad died, his beneficiaries are all alive and so far we have waited 24 weeks for probate, and counting!

You can't inherit debts

No, but the estate has to be "settled", which means paying all debts from the estate, gathering in all payments, totting up and then distributing to beneficiaries.

Did you own a home jointly with him? If so, then half of this home (depending on who is named on the mortgage etc) is part of the estate.

This is also wrong. Who is on the mortgage isn't relevant. It is who is on the DEEDS and how the property was held - either joint tenants or tenants in common. Both are dealt with in different ways on death - only if held as tenants in common does it form part of the estate. For joint tenants it passes directly, outside the will (but still declarable for inheritance tax) to the other owner..

@Belladonna12

The missing information here is whether there was a will, and if so, whether the op was named as executor. If no will, while she would be sold beneficiary as the legal wife, she would not be executor. Because when you die intestate someone has to apply to the court to be named as the administrator of the estate, there is no executor.

That's not true if there is hardly any money in the estate. OP can probably go to the bank, prove who she is and receive the money.

How?

And why "probably" - do you know this or not?

Your suggestion would mean that someone can write a will, appoint person a as executor, make bequests to person b but person c can rock up at the bank waving a marriage certificate and take all the money. Don't think so.

Did you own a home jointly with him? If so, then half of this home (depending on who is named on the mortgage etc) is part of the estate.

This is also wrong. Who is on the mortgage isn't relevant. It is who is on the DEEDS and how the property was held - either joint tenants or tenants in common. Both are dealt with in different ways on death - only if held as tenants in common does it form part of the estate. For joint tenants it passes directly, outside the will (but still declarable for inheritance tax) to the other owner..

Yeah, ok... I should have put deeds and not mortgage. But it means that the OP needs to look at this. If it is "tenants in common" this would presumably mean that any funeral costs would have to be paid out of the cash remaining in the estate and any more that might be needed to pay for the rest of the funeral would need to come out of the rest of the assets - ie. out of the value of his half of the house.

Who is the executor? As the wife you are legally his next of kin. His father has lied to the coroner and this information needs to be accurate regardless of what the funeral arrangements are. With regards to costs, the executor cannot bill you for costs larger than that within the estate.

Am currently sorting MIL Will/Funeral etc.

You need to speak to the registrar and coroner etc and let them know you were still married and in fact you are next of kin. At the moment it sounds like you are being deliberately excluded by FIL and if he is Executor or pretending to be then he could strip the estate entirely to the benefit of themselves. At the services its 30 people (Church and Crem), at the Wake its 15 and has to be a sit down meal if you can find somewhere that will do it and are prepared for that exposure. It has to be somewhere professional not in someones home. All that adds cost so just be aware. Whilst you might be sole beneficiary it would be easy for an executor to manipulate things - probate is not an essential if the amounts are smallish. For e.g. some of MIL investments the limit to release without probate is 36k, so its just released on death cert and Will copy. But this varies by firm. If you are partner ie Wife, then remember any pensions you might also be entitled to and assurances attached to those may also pay out. The Executor is meant to sort that. Any accounts in joint ownership it comes to you no quibbles. So I think it may be worth involving a solicitor if you suspect there will be issues paying for the funeral, money being spent unecessarily etc. If there is no probate the will will not be registered and not a matter of public knowledge - its important to establish if there is one and whether its valid, then getting a copy of it. If there is no Will it will have to go to probate as you need what is called Letter of Administration which will stand instead of a will and will establish who the beneficiary of the will will be and appoint someone to administer it - usually a solicitor who will of course charge

And why "probably" - do you know this or not?

I say probably because I don't know if things have changed or if all banks do the same thing . A relative of mine did manage to go to the bank and extract money from their deceased parents account without a will. They were able to do this because there was not much money there and no probate or solicitors etc .This was many years ago though.

Your suggestion would mean that someone can write a will, appoint person a as executor, make bequests to person b but person c can rock up at the bank waving a marriage certificate and take all the money. Don't think so.

OP hasn't said that he has written a Will or that anyone is and execute. A lot of people don't have Wills, especially if they have very little money. I was surprised that my relative was able to extract the money from the bank but they did. Maybe they could have been taken to court about it but if it's a relatively small amount people may not bother and I don't know what would happen if they did.

Hopefully you can get some genuine legal advice as there is a lot of conflicting advice on here!

In my view, your FIL is liable for costs as he is the contact and has arranged the funeral. As you're not even going to the funeral, the funeral directors aren't ever even going to know who you are, unless your FIL gives them your details - and you can just ping them straight back to him as you have had no input whatsoever.

As you are NOT, as he claimed, divorced, you are the sole beneficiary unless your ex made a Will leaving all his assets away from you.
If his estate wouldn't even cover costs, then of course your FIL has to cover the rest - but given his churlishness, I don't see how he can force you to pay for any of it.

But please, get advice from a solicitor.