John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

So all boys are potential rapists then and must be TAUGHT not to rape. MN at its finest .

All human beings are potential murderers. I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

@Chloemol

YANBU. To me honest it frustrates me, as a woman, that in rape cases woman are given anonominity but men are named, and even if found not guilty it still sticks ( and don’t forget some woman’s have admitted they made it up), but as a woman you may still be found out by just turning up to court and someone recognising you

I would like to see all cases as no names until after the court case, for everything.

Again, women aren't automatically granted anonymity and men aren't automatically named. Alleged victims of sexual assault are granted anonymity and alleged perpetrators of sexual assault can be named. If a man accused a woman of sexually assaulting him then the man would be granted anonymity as he is the alleged victim however the woman could be named as she is the alleged perpetrator. It just so happens that most sexual assault victims are female and most perpetrators are male. Nobody ever seems keen on addressing that issue though. I wonder why.

It implies men rape because women haven’t taught them not to. Whereas in reality, nobody rapes because they weren’t taught, they do it because they don’t care.
I think there are boys growing up in a culture that makes it appear women want sex when they say they don't, they like to be pushed around, no just means maybe. It has probably always been thus but the porn available to them (and even lyrics in music) are much more about treating women as vessels for their penis than about romantic love. My ds is a bit young but I hope I can make him expect enthusiastic consent as part of his eventual sex life.

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

From I’ve read just now, Leslie couldn’t sue Wright as to win a libel case you have to be able to prove what you are accused of is untrue. How can you prove something didn’t happen if the alleged victim won’t say what actually did.

Jonsson would have known there would a lot of media interest into who it was she was accusing. She should have named him if she was writing about it in a book for public consumption, and cooperated with the police investigation. She could have used it as a platform for other rape victims to come forward. Odd that she didn’t. She got a lot of publicity about it.

She was in a bind. Say nothing, and her book isn't truthful and the shame victims feel about sexual assault deepens. Every time you don't put your hand up and say 'me too' your shame gets a bit deeper, even though it's not your fault.

@Cadent

Having 3 sons myself

Teach your sons not to rape and they should be fine.

Not if they are false accused under current burdens.

Back to the drawing board on that one @Cadent

The OP is precisely why women don’t report rape. The chance of not getting a prosecution is so high, as a raped woman you stand a very high chance of being publicly branded a liar.

Just because a not guilty verdict is given doesn’t mean they weren’t guilty. It could be, that they had a very clever lawyer with no morals, who argued that the woman wanted to be violently raped, as she was doing something unreasonable like wearing lacy knickers. That actually happened. A defence lawyer stood in court, in front of a rape victim, and held up the underwear she was wearing the night she was raped, as defence!

I 100% believe Ulrika, and I believe there are many other victims out there. There are so many reasons women don't report rape, and the rapist being famous makes it nearly impossible. Any woman accusing JL after all of that would be putting their life, career and reputation on the line. What woman would want to be trashed in the press and become a hate figure online, probably receive hundreds of online rape and death threats, to make an allegation that almost certainly can't be proven in court and which has such a tiny chance of conviction?

Again, so why have women he previously worked with defended him in court? It’s not as if that would help their public profile is it?
Plenty of people have very strange attitudes about sexual offences or are unable to see past the kindly (to them) person they know. Someone connected to a hobby group I used to belong to was convicted of possessing hundreds of child sexual abuse images of the most serious class (not just penetration but actual torture) and plenty of people within that hobby group who knew and were friends with him, defended him and acted like it wasn't a big deal.

Some people just have a knee-jerk reaction to automatically believe any man and disbelieve any woman. There's a profound thread of real deep-seated misogyny and loathing of women running through our society, and unfortunately that sometimes has an insidious affect even on other women who internalise misogynistic beliefs and myths without even realising it. And of course people can't see past their personal experiences - if someone is really nice to you, it's hard to accept they had a dark side.

There was a really great article published the other day where a journalist contacted everyone in Epstein's little black book and spent ages talking to a woman who he'd befriended and mentored, and she was in real agony trying to reconcile the monster she knew he was, with the many genuine acts of kindness and generosity she'd experienced.

www.motherjones.com/politics/2020/10/i-called-everyone-in-jeffrey-epsteins-little-black-book/

I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

Are you not teaching your own children that others have rights and bodily autonomy?

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

So all boys are potential rapists then and must be TAUGHT not to rape. MN at its finest .

All human beings are potential murderers. I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

OP you are a disgrace.

In my circle of friends I know of no rapes false or true that were reported to the police. I however know of at least a dozen incidents of rape, sexual assault or childhood abuse that went unreported. Anecdotal I know, but telling, I think.

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

So all boys are potential rapists then and must be TAUGHT not to rape. MN at its finest .

All human beings are potential murderers. I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

Well of course they are. Isn't that why we constantly tell women and girls to take precautions? Because we can't tell which men are rapists and which aren't?

It’s not for anyone else to say what another woman should do about sexual assault whether that woman is famous or not.

I wouldn’t believe that JL is a man whose life has been blighted by the misfortune of running into successive female fantasists but rather that His reputation is deserved.

I want accused to be named, just like they are for any other crime, as this is a crime where such reports may help other women come forward.

Bubbletrouble - well exactly, this is endlessly true. I struggle to name friends who haven’t been sexually assaulted/raped. But the problem is for the named accused who the cps already decided stood a good chance if conviction.

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

So all boys are potential rapists then and must be TAUGHT not to rape. MN at its finest .

All human beings are potential murderers. I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

Sigh. OP, we live in a society where women and girls are routinely objectified, where their bodies are seen as commodities to be used and abused for men's entertainment. Where they are positioned as support humans for men. Where they can be bought by men. If you think your sons are going to grow up in this patriarchal society and not absorb this, then I have swampland in Arizona to see you.

And for my daughters' sake and every girl's sake, you had better teach your sons about consent and boundaries because they are going to be exposed to things that will brutalise them into misogyny otherwise. And like it or not, to many girls your sons are going to be Shrodinger's Rapist. They need to know exactly how many girls are going to perceive them and fear them at times, and as their parent, you need to help them understand this and try to always be aware of it.

Not only until charged, until proven guilty. There is zero need to publicise allegations before they have been proven.

The argument that others may come forward doesn't wash with me - if someone has attacked you, you report them. You don't need the validation of others. Even if the police does nothing at that point, it forms a picture if another allegation is made at a later date. But there is no need for newspapers to know.

I know a lot of MNers disagree with me on this, but suspects are innocent until proven guilty, and trial by newspaper, or in these days, social media, isn't on.

If you were accused of something you hadn't done you wouldn't want it splashed all over the newspapers. And if you had done it you'd at least want a fair trial.

You can report cases like they do in Germany - "|Alice A" has been charged with shoplifting.

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

From I’ve read just now, Leslie couldn’t sue Wright as to win a libel case you have to be able to prove what you are accused of is untrue. How can you prove something didn’t happen if the alleged victim won’t say what actually did.

Jonsson would have known there would a lot of media interest into who it was she was accusing. She should have named him if she was writing about it in a book for public consumption, and cooperated with the police investigation. She could have used it as a platform for other rape victims to come forward. Odd that she didn’t. She got a lot of publicity about it.

So, to get this straight, you believe that if a woman is a victim of a crime it is her fault that her accused isn't convicted?

And if you pay any attention to the world around us you could see that even when a man is convicted there is almost always a lot of sympathy for him and mutterings of falsely accused. John Warboys is just about the only rapist I have ever heard of in my life who doesn't have some level of sympathy from the public.

@Cadent

Having 3 sons myself

Teach your sons not to rape and they should be fine.

That’s awful! And as if ‘teaching’ will stop a rapist!!

All human beings are potential murderers. I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

If course. Every time I tell them "hands to self" and "use your words" and "walk away when you're angry", that's all part of teaching them that it's not acceptable to hurt others.

All of my children are taught that no means no, whether that's them asking for an extra biscuit or nana asking for a cuddle, and that they have rights over their own bodies.

@Antonov

Are you male? I remember you on a thread where the OP had concerns about her partner fancying a 15 yo and you kept insinuating that OP was a sex worker.

"John Leslie has had his life ruined by Wright and Johnsson."

I'd venture to suggest that he has ruined his own life by his, let's say, less than upstanding behaviour, regardless of whether that constitutes rape in a court of law.

Strongly disagree. The naming of suspects allows other victims to come forward. Conviction for sexual assaults are far too low as it is. I support anything that raises confidence in victims to come forward.

It's not all/just rapists in alleys, as pp have said.

The sad reality is that most women raped or assaulted will already know their attacker.

Jonsson would have known there would a lot of media interest into who it was she was accusing. She should have named him if she was writing about it in a book for public consumption, and cooperated with the police investigation. She could have used it as a platform for other rape victims to come forward. Odd that she didn’t. She got a lot of publicity about it.

Why should she have been a platform just because she is famous?

Also, why should she have had to name him? She told her story in her book and refused to get involved in any speculation about the culprit. Why should she have had to leave a massive part of her life story out of her book just because she didn't want to face the horror of speaking to the police? She couldn't have anticipated Matthew Wright naming him on live tv.

A woman who has been married several times and has children with more than one father would, imo, be mad to go to the police about a rape. There is not a chance she wouldn't be slaughtered in a court system that fails women on a daily basis.

So OP do you think John Leslie is an extremely unlucky man to have been accused so many times by several different women? You still haven't addressed that.