John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

I have experience with a friend of mine and John Leslie. Like you say OP, no smoke without fire. I have very little sympathy for him I'm afraid.

MrsTerryPratchett I am sorry to hear that has happened to you .It is inherently wrong to me that these men get away with such shit .As a 15 year old you are impressionable and naive ,and he at 18 took advantage of that. I wonder if he has a family and any Daughters, he would feel if something like that happened to them ?

stackemhigh
If you mean having a different point of view is derailing a thread, then you are wrong. If somebody wants to pound forth their unbalanced arguments and not be challenged, they should write a book - not go on mumsnet.
Still - I’m sure pumper will be happy in her own echo chamber, so I’ll leave her to it and go off on my night out with a nice man. Yes - there are loads of them about - good evening. 🥂🥂

@StoneofDestiny

stackemhigh If you mean having a different point of view is derailing a thread, then you are wrong. If somebody wants to pound forth their unbalanced arguments and not be challenged, they should write a book - not go on mumsnet. Still - I’m sure pumper will be happy in her own echo chamber, so I’ll leave her to it and go off on my night out with a nice man. Yes - there are loads of them about - good evening. 🥂🥂

Of course, you don’t have a different point of view, you don’t actually think I believe Alll Men are rapists. You’re convincing yourself you’re in a very tiny minority (suspiciously tiny, in fact) of women who have never, ever had unwanted attention or experienced any kind of sexism whatsoever and neither has anyone you know. That’s despite claiming you work in a male-dominated environment, but no, definitely no sexism to be seen here!

I suspect if your man was really as good as you’re hoping we’ll believe, you wouldn’t feel the need to deny sexual assault is an issue for women. Good luck to you 👍

Pumperthepumper, what specific actions would you like to see 'all men' taking to make things better?

I ask this out of real interest with a view to hopefully doing better in the future (I'm a feller btw). I've asked the same question on here before but have been accused of being disingenuous.

I like to think I already do a fair bit (I won't say what because it's very specific and outing) but i'm a specific position that allows me to do this. I honestly would like to know what you think 'dave down the pub' who is not rapey himself and is basically a decent human being could do more to tackle the problem.

On the subject of men taking collective responsibility for other men, I think it's incumbent on all of us to tackle arseholish behaviour whenever we see it. Frankly I bristle at being lumped in the same category as some of the specimens I see and hear about every day - I feel I have nothing in common with these cunts except a shared chromosome - but also see it as fundamentally unjust that women should have to lead on solving a problem that is caused almost entirely by men.

The first step in changing make behaviour is to separate your individual experiences from the bigger picture, saying men as a class are problematic is not a personal attack on you as an individual man so don't get all defensive about it.

As for the rest, what do you think men should do to make things better?

The first step in changing make behaviour is to separate your individual experiences from the bigger picture, saying men as a class are problematic is not a personal attack on you as an individual man so don't get all defensive about it.

I haven't understood it as a personal attack. I recognise that it isn't.

As for the rest, what do you think men should do to make things better?

I'm asking you. I already try to (a) behave decently where I can and (b) call out arseholish behaviour when it's safe to do so. Also I do something very specific work-related that 'dave in the pub' couldn't replicate.

I'm genuinely interested in what people think 'dave' can do beyond the very obvious. Like I said, when I asked this question before, it was met mainly with sarcasm and accusations of disingenuity.

Poor John Leslie, he just keeps bumping into these lying women, willing to be dragged through the courts to ruin an innocent man they don't even know.

I'm genuinely interested in what people think 'dave' can do beyond the very obvious. Like I said, when I asked this question before, it was met mainly with sarcasm and accusations of disingenuity.

I’d say, don’t engage in any kind of banter where being a woman is a punchline. Be genuinely appalled if one of your friends makes sexist comments around you, and say so. Don’t visit strip clubs. Don’t watch porn you haven’t made yourself with a consenting partner. Teach your children that women are not fair game, what enthusiastic consent looks like. That’s a good starting point, anyway.

Here’s a good link @thedancingbear

www.unwomen.org/en/news/stories/2019/11/compilation-ways-you-can-stand-against-rape-culture

I wasn't saying you were on the defensive, I meant "you" in the general sense.

Pumper has a good list. I'd add:

• don't dismiss the experiences of women just because they're different to your experiences or paint men in a bad light

• if women (collectively) are saying a behaviour or action is problematic, listen to them rather than justifying why men should be allowed to carry on doing it if they want to. I remember a thread in here once where someone said that she hated it when she was walking at night and a man would inevitably start walking too closely behind her, lots of posters agreed that they find this intimidating and they wished men would be more mindful of this fact. Up popped a man to say how dare anyone think he could possibly be a potential rapist, that men are potential targets for violence and rape too, he will walk where he wants, and if women have a problem with it then that's their look out

• challenge friends and family members who make misogynistic and/or sexual remarks or "jokes"

• don't support the "sex industry" and the hugh rates if trafficking, coercion, and mistreatment that go alongside it

11. Don’t laugh at rape. Rape is never a funny punchline. Rape jokes delegitimize sexual violence, making it harder for victims to speak up when their consent is violated. Humour that normalizes and justifies sexual violence is not acceptable. Call it out.
That's a good list stackemhigh Frankie Boyle take note

YANBU
A close friend of mine (male) was accused of raping someone and it absolutely destroyed his reputation. He was found not guilty and that the "victim" made it up. He still lost his job and a lot of friends. All due to the local media.

The police recorded over 55,000 rapes last year, just over 2,000 were prosecuted and just 1,400 of those resulted in a conviction. I seriously doubt 53,500 women “made up” their rape. Not guilty doesn’t mean the allegation was made up, it means there wasn’t enough evidence to convict. I don’t know whether your friend did or did not rape someone but to suggest a not guilty verdict means she made it up is very wrong. The high chance of women not being believed actively prevents women from even reporting rape much less following the prosecution process to a conclusion.

How many went unreported?

Statistically men are more likely to be raped than be falsely accused of rape

Does anyone actually know how fucking hard it is to get CPS to take sexual assault cases to court?
The threshold is so high, honestly people have literally have no idea what cold, hard evidence is needed to even get it to court. PLUS it then needs to be in the public interest and have a realistic prospect of conviction.

So actually, if any crime like this gets to court, chances are the suspect is guilty. They just get brilliant defence lawyers.

Delete my comment, I said what I said.

All the "he probably did it anyway" even when proven innocent nonsense is exactly why people need anonymity.

Anybody can be falsely accused of a crime or mistakenly identified, it's horrifying for people to want to destroy innocent peoples lives on the basis of meeting the wrong person or being in the wrong place at the wrong time.

People are innocent until proven guilty.

The number of women on here who think that no woman would ever lie (as if we all haven't met pathological liars of both sexes) and that every man must be guilty regardless of the evidence or lack thereof is disturbing.

It's also probably partly why British juries are more skeptical than in other countries. They have to believe that the witnesses believe that truth matters. They have to believe that the police are producing all the evidence and not hiding evidence that showed the defendent was innocent, as has happened in a few cases and made headlines.

The number of women on here who think that no woman would ever lie

When did you first think you could read minds?

Don't have to read minds, when I can read the messages.

@MiddleClassMother

YANBU A close friend of mine (male) was accused of raping someone and it absolutely destroyed his reputation. He was found not guilty and that the "victim" made it up. He still lost his job and a lot of friends. All due to the local media.

I assume there must have been some evidence he did it if it got to court even if he was found not guilty?

A not guilty verdic does not = she made it up.

@ReneeRol

Don't have to read minds, when I can read the messages.

But nobody on here has said that women never lie about being raped...

And you quite clearly said 'The number of women on here who think that no woman would ever lie' which implies you know what people are thinking.

As a multiple (over 100) rape and sexual abuse survivor from a young age, YABU. Do you realise how unlikely it is to be falsley accused? And do you realise how many rapists go free or get such short or suspended sentences?

The rape survivor is treated as the criminal. No other victim of crime is treated in this way. I can't help but think it's because rape by husbands and boyfriends is higher than anyone can comprehend and it is one of the few crimes affecting predominantly women.

All the "he probably did it anyway" even when proven innocent nonsense is exactly why people need anonymity.

I never said he probably did it anyway. I have absolutely no way of knowing. I was challenging the idea that not guilty = she made it up. It’s not that simple.

@ReneeRol

Don't have to read minds, when I can read the messages.

Except nobody said that. PP said that the number of women who lie is very, very small. That men (Crosby, Weinstein, Trump?) have to have many, many women coming forward before there is even a hope of a conviction. One woman, no evidence, texts/sexual history being used against her? Not a chance. That doesn’t make him innocent.

All the "he probably did it anyway" even when proven innocent nonsense is exactly why people need anonymity

You dont get proven innocent

And as others have said...no one said women don’t lie