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AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

550 replies

FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers · 19/10/2020 17:17

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

OP posts:
Butterer · 19/10/2020 19:02

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

Cadent · 19/10/2020 19:02

So all boys are potential rapists then and must be TAUGHT not to rape. MN at its finest grin.

Why are you so against teaching your son about consent, OP? Where do you want him to learn this from if not his parents?

There’s a thread right now where an OP’s 12 yo son is inappropriately touching his 5 yo sister. She is trying to protect her dd by not allowing son to stay overnight but her ex’s family are telling her she is over-reacting.

CallmeMrsScavo · 19/10/2020 19:10

@Cadent

YABU. The number of rapes being reported to police is growing but the number of prosecutions is falling and a record low.

Police are using rape victims' mobile phone history against.

That is what your AIBU should be.

So? Nothing that you've said justifies anyone who has been falsely accused being publicly shamed.
Rhine · 19/10/2020 19:10

Meh, I know what I think of John Leslie. I know people who’ve met him in real life and he’s a massive sleaze. Just because he got found guilty didn’t mean he didn’t do it. Just means there wasn’t enough evidence.

Plmoknijb123 · 19/10/2020 19:11

YANBU - I think anonymity should be granted to both sides. If it isn’t, the law isn’t being upheld in that the person accused will be found guilty in the court of public opinion before the case is even heard.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 19/10/2020 19:12

How do you know John Leslie was falsely accused @callmemrsscavo? Do you think it's just a coincidence he has been accused so many times by several different women? Or were you talking about someone else?

Butchyrestingface · 19/10/2020 19:12

I totally agree with you. John Leslie has had his life ruined by Wright and Johnsson. Why did she never say anything? Horrible woman

Ooooh, I wonder why she never exonerated him? What POSSIBLE reason could she have had for keeping schtum? Let me have a think... 🤔

Could it be, could it possibly be, because she was ... raped?

Plmoknijb123 · 19/10/2020 19:13

If a lot of rapists are not being punished or convicted then the law needs to be changed. But that doesn’t mean that anyone accused just becomes public fodder. They have rights too, that’s the foundation of our justice system.

Doyoumind · 19/10/2020 19:14

I was on twitter before and the number of people going on about false accusations made me feel ill. False accusations are incredibly rare. What is common is not enough evidence being available to secure a guilty verdict.

Gancanny · 19/10/2020 19:15

For anyone wondering how common false accusations of rape are in the CPS’ view, false allegations of rape are “serious but rare”. Using their own figures they estimate that there is one prosecution for a false rape claim out of every 161 rape cases prosecuted (note, only prosecuted cases as not all reports will lead to prosecution). That means — according to the best available data — false allegations make up approximately just 0.62 per cent of all rape cases

JaniceBattersby · 19/10/2020 19:16

I am a reporter at a regional newspaper working in the magistrates’ and crown courts.

In practise, the huge majority of men aren’t named until after their first appearance in court.

The only men ever named before a court appearance are famous men. I can think of possibly seven or eight famous men this has happened to in the past decade.

Most men are named after charge, at their first mags court appearance, and only then in the most serious of cases. There are perhaps five sex crimes on my court list every day. I report an average of two or three a week due to time constraints and a dire lack of reporters. The rest are never named, their cases not reported on and they have no adverse publicity whatsoever.

In practise, if we weren’t allowed to name the defendants until conviction it’s very likely that I and every other regional court report would never attend a sex crime court case again.

I cannot spend weeks in court following a case that ends up being ‘a man is accused of raping a woman.’ If we don’t identify the defendant then we also can’t usually report the place it happened or the circumstances in which it happened. Any court report becomes meaningless and there isn’t a single editor in the land who’d send a reporter to spend their very precious time covering this type of case. There also isn’t a single reader who’d waste their time reading such a nonsensical piece of writing.

Let’s also not forget the majority of murders are also sexually motivated. Can we also not name alleged murderers if there’s a sexual element involved?

So the upshot is that no women ever see justice done publicly and sex trials become, in effect, held behind closed doors. The effect of secret justice on for victims (who already have virtually no chance of conviction) is catastrophic. We would be in a situation where the very worst crimes committed, mainly against women, would go unreported.

The only people that an anonymity law would protect are an incredibly small handful of rich, famous men. They’re the last people we should be protecting. And of those I can think of that have stood trial for crimes against women, pretty much all of them have kept their fancy, well-paying jobs.

I’ve sat through dozens and dozens of rape and sexual assault trials. It’s incredibly difficult to even get them to court. I’d say about forty percent of those that I’ve seen get to trial are found not guilty. In my two decades of experience I’d say that one of those defendants had clearly not done it. The rest simply couldn’t be proven beyond reasonable doubt. In every case, the men were horrific specimens, whether guilty of rape or not.

The chance of an upstanding person who acts with integrity facing trial for rape is almost zero. So you’ve no need to worry about your sons.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 19/10/2020 19:16

@Plmoknijb123

If a lot of rapists are not being punished or convicted then the law needs to be changed. But that doesn’t mean that anyone accused just becomes public fodder. They have rights too, that’s the foundation of our justice system.
Good job they aren't then.
Gancanny · 19/10/2020 19:17

Naming the defendant is not exclusive to rape or sexual assault hearings, all defendants are named as we have an open justice system.

Sparklesocks · 19/10/2020 19:17

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

So all boys are potential rapists then and must be TAUGHT not to rape. MN at its finest Grin.

All human beings are potential murderers. I hope you’re all teaching your sons and daughters not to murder.

I think it’s a good idea. Many sexual assaults aren’t committed by scary men down dark alleys waiting to pounce, they’re committed by ‘ordinary’ men with girlfriends/partners in bedrooms. It’s not so much about teaching ‘do not rape’ as it is the importance of enthusiastic consent, respecting your partner and understanding what could be deemed grey areas.
Nomorepies · 19/10/2020 19:17

This reply has been withdrawn

This has been withdrawn by MNHQ on the poster's request

JaniceBattersby · 19/10/2020 19:20

@FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers

From I’ve read just now, Leslie couldn’t sue Wright as to win a libel case you have to be able to prove what you are accused of is untrue. How can you prove something didn’t happen if the alleged victim won’t say what actually did.

Jonsson would have known there would a lot of media interest into who it was she was accusing. She should have named him if she was writing about it in a book for public consumption, and cooperated with the police investigation. She could have used it as a platform for other rape victims to come forward. Odd that she didn’t. She got a lot of publicity about it.

You are wrong OP. The burden of proof is on the defendant in a libel case.

Matthew Wright would have had to go to court and prove that what he said was true. He’s no mug and he would have taken serious legal advice before naming Leslie.

Leslie more likely didn’t want to test Wright’s hypothesis in public because he was seriously worried about what would come out.

LakieLady · 19/10/2020 19:22

@TheQuietWoman

No. It is the only crime where people clamour for anonymity and that is because it mainly impacts men's reputation. If men are given anonymity for this, why not every other crime? And one of the reasons men like John Warboys was caught, is because other women were able to come forward due to his name and identity being publicised.

Not only that, but false allegations for rape are very rare. On par with false allegations of other crimes so why pick this one out? Oh that's right. Because it impacts men and a substantial minority of them would like to attack and abuse women with no one hearing about it. And if we did permit anonymity for rape cases and nothing else, it would send out a very clear message to women that no one believes them and that society views them as liars. It plays into every misogynistic man's hands.

And it destroys their reputation and life, really? How come then I saw Mike Tyson on Good Morning Britain just a few days ago, promoting himself? How come those awful Rugby players swanned off to new clubs? Chef Evans too, while his victim had to emigrate? Emotional, manipulative claptrap, all designed to let men do what they want, especially to women and girls.

I agree with every word of this.
Catiopea · 19/10/2020 19:23

Nails - *”I agree people accused should have anonymity. It is far too easy at the moment for men women to get away with rape make a false accusation and because it’s absurdly fucking easy difficult to get away with prove either way rape it can ruin innocent people’s lives in an instant.

SocietyThe law should not allow one sex lie to have that big an impact on the other.

One sex should not have that much power over the other when we are trying to achieve equality.

Pumperthepumper · 19/10/2020 19:23

That’s awful!
And as if ‘teaching’ will stop a rapist!!

It will though. We imagine rapists as being hooded figures in dark alleyways but the vast majority of them aren’t - they’re our friends, colleagues, neighbours who were never taught about enthusiastic consent, who don’t take no for an answer, who refuse to listen when we say enough. All the men who think drunk women are fair game, all the men who objectify women in the street, the men who email videos to their friends - these are the ones we need to teach.

It means more if the teaching comes from other men though. That’s why we need allies.

EveryPlanetHasAYorkshire · 19/10/2020 19:24

Mike Tyson was even in an episode of Law & Order SVU. You couldn't make this shit up.

Hearnoevilspeaknoevil · 19/10/2020 19:26

@overTheRubicon.
Agree totally re character witnesses. I almost got my fingers burnt earlier this year when approached by an ex colleague. I refused. Another colleague agreed, only seeing what we knew. A nice guy. Good colleague etc etc.
He was accused of assault using weapons. So not the same as John Leslie. She has subsequently found that he has form. And is now furiously retracting. Thankfully case postponed owing to covid otherwise, her reference would have been submitted.
Character references should be banned.
Point is. How well do we know anyone?

Cadent · 19/10/2020 19:31

[quote Catiopea]Nails - *”I agree people accused should have anonymity. It is far too easy at the moment for men women to get away with rape make a false accusation and because it’s absurdly fucking easy difficult to get away with prove either way rape it can ruin innocent people’s lives in an instant.

SocietyThe law should not allow one sex lie to have that big an impact on the other.

One sex should not have that much power over the other when we are trying to achieve equality.

FatCatThinCat · 19/10/2020 19:32

From I’ve read just now, Leslie couldn’t sue Wright as to win a libel case you have to be able to prove what you are accused of is untrue. How can you prove something didn’t happen if the alleged victim won’t say what actually did.

This is completely wrong. The person being sued has to prove that what they said is true. But, and this is the important bit, the burden of proof is different to the criminal courts. The person being sued only has to prove that it was more likely to be true than not. This is why he didn't sue, he knew there was enough to get over that hurdle.

Mollyboom · 19/10/2020 19:32

I know it may not be a popular opinion on Mumsnet but some women do make false and malicious allegations of rape. Statements such as I've taught my sons not to rape are all well and good until a false accusation is made and then the complainant's phone will be invaluable to the defence team.

StoneofDestiny · 19/10/2020 19:33

People accused of rape should have anonymity unless found guilty. Woman who say they have been raped should have the right to anonymity, unless they are found to have made a false claim.

Leslie jury took 25 minutes to find him not guilty - looks like the evidence wasn't there. Thank goodness we don't have a jury of Mumsnetters!

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