John Leslie - AIBU to agree that men accused of sexual assault should have anonymity until charged?

[FauxFurCoatAndBigKnickers]

Having 3 sons myself (and a daughter), cases like this are really worrying as people will always think ‘there’s no smoke without fire’.

I don’t understand why John Leslie didn’t sue the arse off that jibbering imbecile Wright or why Jonsson started the witch hunt then refused to speak out. That was what started off all the rest of the allegations and if, as it seems, he is entirely innocent, it is a disgusting travesty and has totally ruined his life.

Non DM link below:
www.google.co.uk/amp/s/www.standard.co.uk/news/crime/john-leslie-trial-not-guilty-a4572176.html%3famp

I am gobsmacked so many of his female colleagues stuck up for him........ whilst I have no knowledge of this particular case, I have no doubt that he is guilty of similar crimes.

They don't know that he is not guilty, so how they can vouch for him is puzzling. Being a "gentleman" isn't any kind of evidence.

All the "he probably did it anyway" even when proven innocent nonsense is exactly why people need anonymity.

You don't get proven innocent FFS. You get found not guilty and the standard is beyond a reasonable doubt for guilt. Which means guilty people go free ALL THE TIME the system is set up that way!

It depends how many more rapists you want to enable walk free.

If the 99 or so percent who get away with it aren't enough and you want even more men to get away with sexual crime then no, YANBU.

If OTOH you think at least a tiny, miniscule number of victims of sexual crime should very occasionally have some remote chance of justice, then yes, YABVU.

@MiddleClassMother
Do you have any idea how hard it is to get a rape allegation taken to court? There must have been more than a malicious allegation to get it there.

Recently a rape was recorded on a phone, however the accused was found not guilty of rape. The jury were played the recording of the victim literally shouting no, and him continuing, and he still wasn’t found guilty www.eveningtelegraph.co.uk/fp/young-woman-who-recorded-herself-being-raped-by-her-ex-slams-his-acquittal/

Re the idea of having a German style system where the accused is referred to as Christine C. So everyone in town knows who it is because it's local. But anyone named Christine C is now implicated.

Great idea.

Germany had the rule until recently that someone had to physically resist or it wasn't rape. So they are hardly a model of excellent legislation in this area.

I'm torn, and am answering without reading the rest of the thread (because I don't want to be influenced).
On one side, false accusations ruin lives- but how often do people falsely accuse? I suspect the incidence is fairly low.
On the other side, other victims may be able to come forward if someone is named.
Either everybody is anonymous until proven guilty in court for every crime (I think New Zealand has a similar system?) or nobody is (adults- youth offending is different). I'm not 100% sure which way I lean.

On one side, false accusations ruin lives- but how often do people falsely accuse? I suspect the incidence is fairly low.

I just re-read and realise that this could sound quite callus. Of course, being assaulted or abused ruins more lives, and in no way did I mean to compare being falsely accused of rape to being raped.

@MrsTerryPratchett

Germany had the rule until recently that someone had to physically resist or it wasn't rape. So they are hardly a model of excellent legislation in this area.

It was also legal for a man to rape his wife in Germany until 1997.

Not that the UK is much better...but still...1997 .

The evidence needs to be concrete for any chance of a successful conviction. Even then it's not even enough.

Is there much point for anyone else to come forward as it's unlikely there will be enough incriminating evidence?

Maybe we need 1984 style levels of surveillance.

Thank you thequietwoman Beautifully expressed.

@ Bluntness100

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I particularly enjoyed your comment to Pumper about starting her own thread as she's so angry in her posts .
I'm afraid you'll never get a polite, balanced exchange of views with Pumper. Check out some previous posts, she always starts a 'bun fight' .
Best to just leave the thread when the ''I'm always right (and I'll get abusive to prove it), own veg growing, crochet expert in child poverty starts up with her bleating.

@updownroundandround I think Pumper is brilliant and you’re pathetic for bringing up her other threads to try and discredit her. D- Must do better. 🙄

I think pumper has been great on this thread too.

There was a cracking set of suggestions as to what men could do differently to challenge rape culture. bluntness100 could do well to go away, read and reflect on what to do differently in the future, instead of rowing with women on the internet. I somehow doubt he will

It’s interesting. People say false allegations of rape ruin lives. I know three men who have had allegations of rape made against them (all three interviews by the police, one arrested, in each instance common knowledge) and all three seem to be doing just fine in life. Funny that

There are a tiny number of false rape allegations. Absolutely tiny. The idea that it is men, not women who have their life ruined by claims of rape is an insidious lie that started in MRA groups and has filtered out to the mainstream, giving it an air of legitimacy. A man is 224 times more like to be raped than have a false rape allegation made against him. And far from his life being ruined, research (and I mean detailed, long term, cross national and international research) has found that most men who have been accused of rape or sexual assault go on to have good careers and certainly do not have their entire lives ruined. At all.
I strongly recommend Laura Bate’s book ‘Men who hate Women’ for a huge wealth of research on this issue. It is eye opening and terrifying in equal measure.

@updownroundandround

@ Bluntness100

I've been reading this thread with great interest. I particularly enjoyed your comment to Pumper about starting her own thread as she's so angry in her posts .
I'm afraid you'll never get a polite, balanced exchange of views with Pumper. Check out some previous posts, she always starts a 'bun fight' .
Best to just leave the thread when the ''I'm always right (and I'll get abusive to prove it), own veg growing, crochet expert in child poverty starts up with her bleating.

What a weird way to resurrect a thread! Are you the one with the doctorate?

Beyond reasonable doubt is the burden of proof for criminal proceeding, preponderance of evidence (often referred to as balance of probabilities) is the burden of proof for civil proceedings.

At least according to the CPS. There was guidance issues about how courts understand consent but the burden of proof remains beyond reasonable doubt.

@OlympicProcrastinator

There are a tiny number of false rape allegations. Absolutely tiny. The idea that it is men, not women who have their life ruined by claims of rape is an insidious lie that started in MRA groups and has filtered out to the mainstream, giving it an air of legitimacy. A man is 224 times more like to be raped than have a false rape allegation made against him. And far from his life being ruined, research (and I mean detailed, long term, cross national and international research) has found that most men who have been accused of rape or sexual assault go on to have good careers and certainly do not have their entire lives ruined. At all. I strongly recommend Laura Bate’s book ‘Men who hate Women’ for a huge wealth of research on this issue. It is eye opening and terrifying in equal measure.

Noone knows how many allegations are false, in the same way that noone knows how many are true. Your "224 times more likely" stat comes from logic like this: www.channel4.com/news/factcheck/factcheck-men-are-more-likely-to-be-raped-than-be-falsely-accused-of-rape

Basically, it is counting people who are prosecuted for making false allegations and comparing it to the amount of men who say they have been raped, on the national crime survey.
In other words, they acknowledge that not all instances of a crime are reported or chased to prosecution, so they use NCS stats for a count of rape victims, but don't make the same concession for allegations.
It's disingenuous use of statistics. It's just as hard to prove a false allegation as it is to prove rape, for the exact same reasons.

It's just as hard to prove a false allegation as it is to prove rape, for the exact same reasons

It’s absolutely not.

Women’s lives are routinely ruined for making rape claims. The vast majority don’t bother to report rape or sexual assault because this of this ridiculous narrative that they do it frequently.

My use of statistics is neither from that logic nor disingenuous. It’s from many years of my own knowledge of the matter. The fact remains men are not the victims in all this.

The number was very close to the one you provided, so I assumed you were following tge same spurious logic.
I stand corrected but whatever method you are using to determine which allegations are true with such certainty is probably worth passing on to the police.
It sounds like it would solve a lot of problems.