To say to hell with the rule of 6 this Christmas

[Whatafustercluck]

We've been having discussions about who we should have over this Christmas should the rule of 6 still be in place in our region. We had talked to family and my parents wanted my dsis and niece to be able to spend Christmas with us, so the DC can at least be together. Ad a result, they've made alternative plans just the 2 of them. Dsis and her family will do something on their own because she and bil normally do anyway. So, our Christmas was going to be me, dh, our 2 dc, dsis and niece.

Since then, a good friend of ours has told us she has been having tests for ovarian cancer. The medical professionals have prepared her for the worst. The mass is huge. She is preparing herself to be told it's terminal and has already said she will not be having chemo or radiotherapy if it is stage 3. She's completely on her on her own on what could well be her last Christmas. We spoke yesterday and have invited her, meaning we will be 7 this Christmas. She has accepted, saying she doesn't care about shielding and is happy to take the risk.

Our neighbours are lovely and I think would totally understand if we explain. We just couldn't let her be on her own this Christmas after this news and the totally awful year she's already had. Likewise we cannot/ don't want to uninvite dsis.

Aibu?

I predict the rules against mixing households will still be in place at Xmas.
But there will be zero effort at enforcement (is there any anyway).
Some people will push the rules a bit and receive no punishment.
Some people will shout a lot about that.

It's an arbitrary figure plucked from the air. I definitely wouldn't worry about it in your position. It so happens that there was only ever going to be 6 of us at Christmas, if it was 8 I wouldn't care and would continue as planned.

@cassgate it’s not about the risk to you, but the risk you then carry away to their people. God forbid any of you need help from a stranger one day, lacking as many of you do any sense of what it means to behave as part of a wider society.

I’m now understanding how COVID is still spreading so fast despite all the mitigation in place, given the attitude shown here.

Help your friend OP.

How guilty would you feel if it was terminal (hopefully not) and she had her last Xmas on her own.

There will be 9 of us at Xmas and none of the covid police on this thread will change that.

OP - I wouldn’t worry about plans yet, as so much can change for your friend and rules. It sounds just common humanity to me to offer, and go through with it if things don’t change. I don’t even know how neighbours know about rule breakers to be honest, I have no clue whether there’s 2 or 20 folk next door, it’s not my interest or my business to my mind. Anyway, hijacking slightly - apologies OP - as there are so many who know the rules here, I am wondering where care fits in? I initially bubbled with my parents to allow me to do their shopping, admin, tip runs! etc, as I was a single person household, instead of one of my daughters to see grandkids. I am continuing to provide this care, many days of the week now, as they are deteriorating, but my youngest daughter lost her job and returned home at the start of October, meaning I am now a 2 person household- there is no one else to do this stuff, I can’t do it from outside as they are virtually immobile and my dad can walk but can’t stand still, also do bits inside such as when they drop glass everywhere, and it would stress them when they are already struggling massively. They also need lifts to appointments which I provide. Is this within the rules as providing care? Or do I have to kick my daughter out?! I know I could provide childcare informally but can’t see re other care. I’m in a high risk area.

The rules will have changed by then so I think you are getting a little overexcited with your virtuosity.
I think though there’s loads of support and help you can give your friend within the rules not just on Christmas Day and you would be a good friend to do that. Like the puppies. The sick and vulnerable and lonely aren’t just for Christmas.

I dunno really about the ethics of it. I think people go mental over Christmas and it gets a bit silly with huge pressure. But everyone saying it’s all ok to break the rules because it’s all the governments fault anyway isn’t great. Ok so the NHS is underfunded but there are real live people working in these services and doing their best if you turn up sick. If you can’t miss one turkey dinner, but then get sick and infect others do you not think it’s a bit rich to then expect people to help you? Is that really ok because everything is ‘the governments fault’?

I feel so sorry for your df op, but I also think people should stick to the guidelines, to prevent 10’s of thousands more dying from this Virus. To be honest, my first thought was that of course you should have your friend at Christmas, even if it does mean breaking the rule of 6.

However, on thinking about it, where do you draw the line? If it is okay to have 7, because of the circumstances, then is it also okay to have 8, 9, 10 etc. because of circumstances? Then, in what circumstances is it okay to break the rules? Yes, if someone is terminally ill, but what if it is for what someone else thinks is another valid reason?

Once exceptions to rule are allowed, it is really impossible to decide how, who, when, where the rules are allowed to be broken! People would start to think that, if so and so are allowed to break rules because of x, I can break them because of y.

Looking at your situation, we may all think it is okay because it could be your df’s last Christmas, however it almost certainly isn’t going to be your dsis and dn’s last Christmas? I think this puts another face on the circumstances! You can still have df for Christmas under current rules, you just can’t have df, as well as dsis and dn under the rules. Under the current rules there will be thousands of people having Christmas at home, by themselves or with just their family who live with them, this year (me included). I don’t think the fact that it’s going to be a miserable Christmas because I won’t get to see my grown up children and 4 small grandchildren, is enough of a reason to ignore the rules, which are put in place to save lives!

Ultimately my view in your situation is that having dsis and dn, so that they aren’t alone isn’t a good enough reason to break the rules! Therefore the ball is back in your court, who do you want to have most at Christmas?

Do you think the police will be knocking on people's doors and counting them?

People speed, dangerously, or drive after drinking and the police don't pick them up because they don't check absolutely every car on the roads all the time. Does that make what they did less than a dick move?

Op I'd break the rules for 7 people, esp when you have good reason.
Sometimes you have to stand back and say "could happily stand-up in court and defend my decision", two single adults, one with cancer, I'd bring some festive cheer to them.

I think that they will relax the rules for Christmas in the areas with extra restrictions but I can't see the rule of 6 changing.

Whatafustercluck tell your friend to join the B12 groups on Facebook, they can advise her on buying her own supplies for B12 injections, that alone will be making her feel extremely ill without everything else, she needs to build herself up as much as she can so that if she changes her mind & has treatment she is as well as possible & also so she can stay as well as possible if she doesn't.

On Christmas Day and Boxing Day there will be 7 of us because the alternative is leaving my Elderly Gran alone... She has contact with us weekly regardless and she herself has decided that having a brain tumor means she may not have many more family events so has chosen to join us.

In your case I would also say go ahead.

[quote AdoptAdaptImprove]@cassgate it’s not about the risk to you, but the risk you then carry away to their people. God forbid any of you need help from a stranger one day, lacking as many of you do any sense of what it means to behave as part of a wider society.

I’m now understanding how COVID is still spreading so fast despite all the mitigation in place, given the attitude shown here.[/quote]
The only way to prevent any of us being a risk to others is to have another national lockdown where we are forbidden from leaving our homes at all. That would include closing all schools. Even then there would still be a risk if we are allowed to shop for essentials. I work in a school. I am at risk every day from 30 different children and all their contacts. I accept the risk because I love my job and it is necessary for wider society for schools to be open. My children are at school in bubbles of 200 + each. My extended family accept the risk that by seeing me and my children they are also potentially exposing themselves to 1000s of contacts. The virus is doing what viruses do, no locking down will change that. It will still be there ready to infect again as soon as we open things up. Even a vaccine won’t change that. It will take years to vaccinate the whole population. All a vaccine will do is allow the vulnerable some protection while the rest of us continue to put ourselves at risk.

I definitely would have your friend for Christmas Dinner.
The rules are fine but not when vulnerable people are left alone.
I'm sorry to hear about your friend.

OP even in tier 3, offering support to a vulnerable person is still a permitted exception to the rules. The dodgy bit is therefore actually your DSis and niece. IF the restrictions were very tightly enforced, or if your neighbour did report you, they would be the ones you had to explain, not your friend.

God, its so depressing people on here are so selfish that they would happily be cruel to a dying woman in order to reduce their fear of catching covid (many of whom arent at risk of dying from it).

Op - invite your friend over. Give her an amazing day.

You’re doing the right thing OP. The neighbours aren’t important.

God, its so depressing people on here are so selfish that they would happily be cruel to a dying woman in order to reduce their fear of catching covid (many of whom arent at risk of dying from it).

To be fair rejigging the number of people at your house for dinner on one day of the year isn’t really being cruel is it. She could easily get her sibling round another day.

What is depressing is the frenzy and pressure we have built into Christmas Day where anything other than a specific way of doing things is seen as horrific. So much so that the pressure and misery of this expectation leads to the highest number of suicides in any given year. Now that I find incredibly depressing.

@cassgate You are another poster here who doesn't appear to understand the basics of how this is spreading.

Why is that?

The way it spreads is by people not observing social distancing, primarily.

You can't keep 2 mtrs apart in a house AND wear a mask when eating AND clean the loos and surfaces constantly .

So those people in your house...half could be carrying Covid but not have symptoms.

They could infect the other covid-free people over your Christmas lunch.

Then ALL those people will go back out into the community and infect dozens of other people- one person can infect 1, 2 ,3 or more people depending on the R number.

Those people they do infect will infect others, and some will die because they are old, medically vulnerable or obese, or just damned unlucky.

Please say you now understand how it's passed around and consider your own actions.

Even a vaccine won’t change that. It will take years to vaccinate the whole population

@cassgate.

Your extended family are not exposing themselves to 1000s of contacts. They are exposing themselves to YOU and if you have it, or your immediate family. And they have a choice don't they?
Many people in my close family are not seeing each other to avoid transmission. There are phones, Zoom, and meeting outside if absolutely necessary to meet up.

A huge number of people are getting flu vaccines this autumn. They are the over 50s. The same will apply to Covid- older and vulnerable first.

It's about preventing deaths and long term ill health.

I would say you are absolutely not being unreasonable, and I normally get irritated by people not following the rules. In this case though, I think you'd be doing the right thing. I'm so sorry about your friend

The nation is divided over this. I would abolish all the mandatory rules and have been against them since March although I obey them.

@woods52 thank you for the R4 link, fascinating!

[quote JinglingHellsBells]@cassgate You are another poster here who doesn't appear to understand the basics of how this is spreading.

Why is that?

The way it spreads is by people not observing social distancing, primarily.

You can't keep 2 mtrs apart in a house AND wear a mask when eating AND clean the loos and surfaces constantly .

So those people in your house...half could be carrying Covid but not have symptoms.

They could infect the other covid-free people over your Christmas lunch.

Then ALL those people will go back out into the community and infect dozens of other people- one person can infect 1, 2 ,3 or more people depending on the R number.

Those people they do infect will infect others, and some will die because they are old, medically vulnerable or obese, or just damned unlucky.

Please say you now understand how it's passed around and consider your own actions.[/quote]
I absolutely do understand how it spreads. Under the current rule of 6 I can go and see my In laws and be within the rules. I can also go and see my sil and nieces separately and still comply with the rule of 6. My sil and nieces can go and see her parents (my in laws) and comply with the rule of 6. We have all seen each other within the rules yet if we see each other at the same time in the same house we are breaking the rules. It makes no sense.

I am wondering something similar, @Whatafustercluck - though in my case, it’s the number of households mixing rule that I am considering disobeying.

I have three adult sons, who were all supposed to be here for Christmas - ds1 was also bringing his girlfriend. But as all three have separate households, under the current rules (where I am, we can’t mix even two households), if we obey the rules, none of them can come.

Ds1 and his girlfriend live together, and would be happy enough to have their own Christmas, but ds2 lives on his own - he has a girlfriend, but she has a big family so may not be able to invite him to Christmas with them, and ds3, who is a student, lives with his girlfriend, who will be going home for Christmas, and also has a big family and might not be able to invite him.

Worst case, two of them could end up all on their own, in their flats, having to cook a lonely Christmas dinner for one. There is no way I want that to happen - I know that they won’t always come here for Christmas - they’ll want to have their own family Christmases - but I hate that the decision not to come here could be forced on them.

YANBU OP. In that situation, fuck it. My xmas is going to be just 3 people instead of my whole extended family for the first year ever and I'm actually looking forward to it.