Furious after hospital visit WWYD?

[DameLucy]

Sorry this might be long. I’m just so furious and don’t know what to do so would welcome some perspective.
My elderly father was taken into hospital on Tuesday after a fall at home and was admitted overnight.
The following day, yesterday, I made an appointment to visit. One visitor only, only 2 in a bay at any one time so one hour appointments needed to be made. When I turned up for my appointment, staff met me and ensured I had mask, apron and gloves on prior to going into his bay.
As I arrived in the bay, dad was with the physiotherapist and nursing staff who told me that he could go home and that they had organised an ambulance to take him. It turned out that dad, in a wheelchair, and two ambulance staff were standing waiting for the lift outside his ward at the same time as me as we left at the same time.
As the lift came, there was a patient, in pyjamas, in a wheelchair with a hospital staff member - in a nurses type of uniform but accept that she may not have actually been a nurse - could have been another staff member - in the lift.
I said to the ambulance guys with my father to go in and I would walk down the stairs. As I said this I realised that only 3 people could use the lift at any one time so as there was already 2 people in, the ambulance guys told me to get in the lift and they would wait for the next lift with dad.
As I stepped in the lift, the woman with the patient said to me “You may wish to wait for another lift as this gentleman is Covid positive”. Just at that moment as I stepped out of the lift I looked at the gentleman in the wheelchair and noticed that his mask was balanced on his top lip. I said to him “Your mask should be covering the whole of your mouth and your nose”. I was totally shocked! The nurse/staff member then said “I know but it keeps slipping down”. I was so shocked to say anything else and the lift doors closed and off they went.
It was only afterwards that I realised that the hospital were allowing COVID positive patients to share the same lifts as other patients, like my 88 year old father, and visitors to the hospital.
The ambulance guys said that in other areas there were “Red” lifts and “Green” lifts to stop this type of thing, but apparently this doesn’t happen in my area!
I mean, the hospital were so particular that visitors wear the full PPE - which is totally the right thing to do, but now I think what the hell is the point when they’re shunting COVID positive patients around the hospital, mixing with other patients and visitors and not even ensuring their mask is covering their face!
I feel like making a complaint to the hospital but I have no idea who the staff member was. I deeply regret not asking her name or looking at her badge but I was so shocked at the time and it was over in minutes, so probably it’s pointless. I wouldn’t even know who to complain to tbh.

WWYD? Should I just let it go as I’ve no proof of this happening or would you make a complaint - or am I just over reacting?

I would complain. What is the point of all those precautions if they are so slapdash?

I would. I read on here sometimes you can complain to PALS. I would definitely take this further, very worrying. I’m glad your DF is ok.

I'm a nurse, it's signposted that it's a maximum of two people to one lift in my hospital, with markers on the floor of where to stand. There aren't any red or green lifts: it would be problematic to (as you say) "shunt" () patients around the different areas of the hospital if this was the case, especially if they needed to get somewhere quickly. Atm the official line from Public Health England is that covid is droplet spread, not aerosol spread (unless doing particular medical procedures at the time), so surgical masks and maintaining a 2m distance between patients should be adequate (not saying it definitely is, but that's what we are being told by infection control).

If the staff member was behind the patient in the wheelchair, they might not have seen that their mask has slipped down. Also a lot of patients can't cope wearing masks. Also to be blunt, you should have just got the stairs in the first place if you are capable of taking them.

But yep, you can complain by looking for the contact details for PALs for the hospital.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick thanks for your perspective. Yes I can (and did) take the stairs. However, I’m no spring chicken - 70 - with arthritis and I was carrying his hold-all and 2 walking frames so thought taking the lift acceptable? No?
And the staff member certainly knew he wasn’t wearing his mask correctly - she was right beside him and definitely knew it was hanging off his top lip!

Well you could not have just waited for the next lift if you were really struggling?

Tbh I'm sick of asking/telling patients and visitors to wear their mask properly now. I mean I still do it, but what else can you do if they keep pulling it down, sellotape it over their nose?!

Hobnobs said IF you were capable of taking the stairs!

You dont know how many times the staff member has asked him to pull his mask up. You should be pleased she told you rather than let you squeeze in to the lift with them!

Definitely NBU OP. My dad and my colleagues dad both caught Covid in our local hospital in April, colleagues dad sadly died of it, all alone in there too. I’d have thought they’d be more on top of things by now but sounds like not by your experience. Our elderly fathers (and everyone else for that matter) ought to be safe in hospital, not at risk of catching worse illnesses than they went in with

If you have a good MP you could contact him/her re hospital's lax procedures.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick but surely if someone had actually tested positive it's different than telling visitors etc who statistically are unlikely to have it and wearing as a precaution to adjust their masks. Of course this is ridiculous, and it's no wonder it spreads easily through hospitals.

You're not being unreasonable at all, I would complain to PALS.

I'm glad your dad is ok OP.

@DameLucy

Sorry this might be long. I’m just so furious and don’t know what to do so would welcome some perspective. My elderly father was taken into hospital on Tuesday after a fall at home and was admitted overnight. The following day, yesterday, I made an appointment to visit. One visitor only, only 2 in a bay at any one time so one hour appointments needed to be made. When I turned up for my appointment, staff met me and ensured I had mask, apron and gloves on prior to going into his bay. As I arrived in the bay, dad was with the physiotherapist and nursing staff who told me that he could go home and that they had organised an ambulance to take him. It turned out that dad, in a wheelchair, and two ambulance staff were standing waiting for the lift outside his ward at the same time as me as we left at the same time. As the lift came, there was a patient, in pyjamas, in a wheelchair with a hospital staff member - in a nurses type of uniform but accept that she may not have actually been a nurse - could have been another staff member - in the lift. I said to the ambulance guys with my father to go in and I would walk down the stairs. As I said this I realised that only 3 people could use the lift at any one time so as there was already 2 people in, the ambulance guys told me to get in the lift and they would wait for the next lift with dad. As I stepped in the lift, the woman with the patient said to me “You may wish to wait for another lift as this gentleman is Covid positive”. Just at that moment as I stepped out of the lift I looked at the gentleman in the wheelchair and noticed that his mask was balanced on his top lip. I said to him “Your mask should be covering the whole of your mouth and your nose”. I was totally shocked! The nurse/staff member then said “I know but it keeps slipping down”. I was so shocked to say anything else and the lift doors closed and off they went. It was only afterwards that I realised that the hospital were allowing COVID positive patients to share the same lifts as other patients, like my 88 year old father, and visitors to the hospital. The ambulance guys said that in other areas there were “Red” lifts and “Green” lifts to stop this type of thing, but apparently this doesn’t happen in my area! I mean, the hospital were so particular that visitors wear the full PPE - which is totally the right thing to do, but now I think what the hell is the point when they’re shunting COVID positive patients around the hospital, mixing with other patients and visitors and not even ensuring their mask is covering their face! I feel like making a complaint to the hospital but I have no idea who the staff member was. I deeply regret not asking her name or looking at her badge but I was so shocked at the time and it was over in minutes, so probably it’s pointless. I wouldn’t even know who to complain to tbh.

WWYD? Should I just let it go as I’ve no proof of this happening or would you make a complaint - or am I just over reacting?

Depending on number of lifts etc, some times practicalities overtake ideals.

Not all hospitals were designed with something like this in mind.

[quote DameLucy]@Hobnobsandbroomstick thanks for your perspective. Yes I can (and did) take the stairs. However, I’m no spring chicken - 70 - with arthritis and I was carrying his hold-all and 2 walking frames so thought taking the lift acceptable? No?
And the staff member certainly knew he wasn’t wearing his mask correctly - she was right beside him and definitely knew it was hanging off his top lip![/quote]
But she cant touch it to adjust it constantly

Yes you should complain. My father just got out of the hospital. He spent forever in emergency partly because you can’t go anywhere else In the hospital until the Covid test comes back because Covid and non-Covid patients are kept completely separate.

@LilyPond2 imagine if OPs MP was Margaret Ferrier, AKA Margaret Covid.

@Scaraffito everyone should be wearing a mask at all times in the hospital, regardless of whether they have tested positive or not. But patients are human beings with their own free will, and they don't always want to comply. Masks under noses is my pet hate, but other than asking them nicely or firmly, I don't have any power to make a patient do something that they don't want to do. Like I said, we can't sellotape the mask to their nose (though I wish we could).

Patients with covid can also have a medical exemption from wearing a mask.

Whilst I understand how you feel I am a strong believer in self accountability, we can’t complain every time someone gets it wrong. You could have waited for another lift.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick just wanted to say that you’re a hero. I understand the anxiety of the OP and subsequent posters. I work in health policy; there are massive failings at every level in the nhs. But christ on a bike, I can’t even imagine what you have to deal with day by day right now. Absolute Wonder Woman.

@Pixxie7

Whilst I understand how you feel I am a strong believer in self accountability, we can’t complain every time someone gets it wrong. You could have waited for another lift.

And yes. This 100%

Well yes, but that explains I suppose why the only people I know who have died from covid have died in hospital after going in for other procedures. Of course some positive patients may be exempt, but to have no real plan other than tell someone they might want to exit the lift is ridiculous.

What's the point of OP wearing full PPE if it doesn't protect her like the full PPE is supposed to protect the health professionals giving personal care to patients?

OP wants mitigation to be different elevators when actual mitigation is the full PPE that OP was given. I don't think OP should complain.

That’s awful. Terrible violation of the man’s privacy also.

i don't think it's fair to say OP could have waited for the next lift.
she is concerned about other vulnerable people, not just herself, and that the procedures seem lax and un-joined-up.

I'm equally shocked that she disclosed the other patient's medical information to a stranger in a lift!

Atm the official line from Public Health England is that covid is droplet spread, not aerosol spread (unless doing particular medical procedures at the time), so surgical masks and maintaining a 2m distance between patients should be adequate (not saying it definitely is, but that's what we are being told by infection control).

Unfortunately the official line from PHE is often lagging (see sense of smell) and if as many experts are saying it is aerosol spread, then anyone getting in that lift in the following hours is at risk. Waiting for the next one, or giving verbal warnings doesn't cover that. Mask not a sufficient help either, even if worn correctly.

I would complain OP, and I will be asking the hospital I attend what system they have in place. There are two flights of steep stairs between each floor, and at least 12 floors.

If the organisation of hospitals and areas within them can't be made better than this, then how on earth will we ever get treatment for immuno compromised cancer patients or other vulnerable nhs users back up to speed.

It's bad.

Very poor procedure and I am shocked she disclosed the patient's medical information. Complain about both.