Furious after hospital visit WWYD?

[DameLucy]

Sorry this might be long. I’m just so furious and don’t know what to do so would welcome some perspective.
My elderly father was taken into hospital on Tuesday after a fall at home and was admitted overnight.
The following day, yesterday, I made an appointment to visit. One visitor only, only 2 in a bay at any one time so one hour appointments needed to be made. When I turned up for my appointment, staff met me and ensured I had mask, apron and gloves on prior to going into his bay.
As I arrived in the bay, dad was with the physiotherapist and nursing staff who told me that he could go home and that they had organised an ambulance to take him. It turned out that dad, in a wheelchair, and two ambulance staff were standing waiting for the lift outside his ward at the same time as me as we left at the same time.
As the lift came, there was a patient, in pyjamas, in a wheelchair with a hospital staff member - in a nurses type of uniform but accept that she may not have actually been a nurse - could have been another staff member - in the lift.
I said to the ambulance guys with my father to go in and I would walk down the stairs. As I said this I realised that only 3 people could use the lift at any one time so as there was already 2 people in, the ambulance guys told me to get in the lift and they would wait for the next lift with dad.
As I stepped in the lift, the woman with the patient said to me “You may wish to wait for another lift as this gentleman is Covid positive”. Just at that moment as I stepped out of the lift I looked at the gentleman in the wheelchair and noticed that his mask was balanced on his top lip. I said to him “Your mask should be covering the whole of your mouth and your nose”. I was totally shocked! The nurse/staff member then said “I know but it keeps slipping down”. I was so shocked to say anything else and the lift doors closed and off they went.
It was only afterwards that I realised that the hospital were allowing COVID positive patients to share the same lifts as other patients, like my 88 year old father, and visitors to the hospital.
The ambulance guys said that in other areas there were “Red” lifts and “Green” lifts to stop this type of thing, but apparently this doesn’t happen in my area!
I mean, the hospital were so particular that visitors wear the full PPE - which is totally the right thing to do, but now I think what the hell is the point when they’re shunting COVID positive patients around the hospital, mixing with other patients and visitors and not even ensuring their mask is covering their face!
I feel like making a complaint to the hospital but I have no idea who the staff member was. I deeply regret not asking her name or looking at her badge but I was so shocked at the time and it was over in minutes, so probably it’s pointless. I wouldn’t even know who to complain to tbh.

WWYD? Should I just let it go as I’ve no proof of this happening or would you make a complaint - or am I just over reacting?

Hospitals might have COVID positive people and they might need to be moved sometimes and some may struggle to wear masks. I am more shocked you tried to get into a lift with them.

The hospital I have been a regular visitor at doesn’t have lifts, but I have stayed in a lot of hotels lately (connected to hospital visits) and wouldn’t even think of sharing a lift with anyone and neither has any other hotel guest tried to get in with me. Take some responsibility yourself.

Full PPE is not a plastic apron, gloves and a mask!!!

Is it procedure to inform people of patients being covid positive? I think I’d probably be internally thanking her for that little nugget to be honest!
The rules are a shambles, there’s only so much they can do. I doubt you’ll get very far with a complaint anyway, I wouldn’t waste my time personally.
Hope your father makes a full recovery.

Tbh she broke that patient’s confidentiality when she told you! I’d also be concerned about that!

In my opinion you are completely over reacting.

I agree with Hobnobs and Dusty. I’m also a nurse, and getting patients to keep masks on is a constant battle.
However, like Dusty, I’m more concerned that anyone who works in healthcare would disclose information about a patient’s condition to someone not invoked directly in their care.

involved🙄

Perhaps it would be better if the hospital completely banned visitors, like many other hospitals have. Then this wouldn’t have happened.

This just sounds like a really difficult situation all round for everyone. How is the nurse meant to add another covid specific lift to the hospital? And how is the nurse meant to maintain patient confidentiality during a pandemic when she’s been placed in this difficult situation? If you complain what do you expect it to achieve? It’s a frustrating scenario but I expect the nurse is just as frustrated as you, she’s the one stuck in a lift with a covid positive patient who isn’t wearing a mask properly.

i would not share a lift op. if you cannot take the stairs make it a policy not to share with strangers.
when at a hospital a staff member in scrubs saw me about to take a lift and declined to share with me.
even at our asda there is a sign saying one at a time now for the lift.
are you sure she didnt say He Might be positive? hard to hear with masks sometimes.

@UseOfWeapons

I agree with Hobnobs and Dusty. I’m also a nurse, and getting patients to keep masks on is a constant battle. However, like Dusty, I’m more concerned that anyone who works in healthcare would disclose information about a patient’s condition to someone not invoked directly in their care.

This.

We don’t have red or green lifts. Only 2 people are supposed to be in the lifts and we have ‘up’ and ‘down’ stairs. Doesn’t mean visitors follow it, or all staff.

@DustyD2

I'm equally shocked that she disclosed the other patient's medical information to a stranger in a lift!

As a nurse this was my thought too. Absolute disgrace that this poor man was humiliated and his face examined to see the position of his mask!!

Can I just get this right? Covid patients can be exempt from wearing a mask, but we wear masks to protect others?? By this definition, some covid patients are exempt from protecting others? I can completely understand that a seriously ill patient on a covid ward might be unable to wear a mask, but if they are being moved from one area of the hospital to another possibly passing or using lifts that may also be used by vulnerable non- covid patients then surely it is a basic duty of care to other patients to ensure that they wear a mask for the duration of time that they are off the covid ward? They may not like it or want to but it is essential. Or if the mask makes so little difference, why are we all wearing them in the first place just 'in case' we are asymptomatic or presymptomatic?

In the words of Mumsnet: "The rights of the covid patient to not wear a mask do not trump the rights of all other hospital patients, staff and visitors to be safe" . I sympathise with the staff who are sick of telling people to pull their masks up, but I think with a covid positive patient that a firm word about it as a priority, for the safety of others.

YANBU they should not be mixing covid patients with other ill people. You have to wear full ppe to visit your dad just in case you're an asymptomatic carrier but a covid positive patient can be in a lift with him without wearing a mask?
That's completely unacceptable.

Just to throw another couple of reasons why the patient might not be wearing a mask, he or she might have had COPD or asthma and found wearing a mask difficult. He might have had dementia and not understand why he had to wear a mask and kept taking it off, and maybe become aggressive when told to put it back on.
The hospital is for the patients, not visitors tbh.

Also, he might have been Covid positive 2 weeks ago and no longer infectious. And even people with Covid might need to have scans or attend clinics after the initial infectious period.

@dancinfeet

Can I just get this right? Covid patients can be exempt from wearing a mask, but we wear masks to protect others?? By this definition, some covid patients are exempt from protecting others?

Yes. People who have dementia, learning disabilities, sensory issues like autism, mental health problems, or severe breathing difficulties like COPD, or a combination of the above, can still catch covid. For example, how do you propose you would ensure a 93 year old man with severe dementia and COPD be forced to keep a mask on his face?

Seeing that the main transmission mode is the air and that one person infected about 30 persons in a high rise building just because they used the lift AFTER them (not at the same time...), I think you are totally reasonable @DameLucy.

I get the issue about the number of lifts, where they are etc... however, in that case, there is a need to put more protection in place. Eg patients HAVE TO wear a mask.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick, I ca see how tricky that can be.
But what about the other patients including the elderly, the ones with auto immune disease etc.... are they not allowed to be protected too?

If it’s impossible to keep a mask on someone, and it’s likely that you will have to move those patients around, then the hospital needs to put something in place.
If they can’t ensure the safety of other patients, they shouldn't be accepting Covid patients.
That’s something that was vaguely mentioned at some point. That some hospitals wouldn’t have any Covid patients do they could treat other people wo risk (and less restrictions on surgery etc...)

patients need to be moved around hospitals sometimes.

not all hospitals have sufficient lifts to separate covid and non covid patients.

You should not have tried to enter a lift with other people in it, wait for another one if you cant take the stairs, you could have sent the walkers in the lift with the people taking your relative.

If you are not in the lift for long the risk is low anyway, fomites are not much of an issue and you had masks and gloves.

the person in the lift was caught between a rock and a hard place, be grateful she warned you.

The only things that might change as a result of a complaint are 1. a stressed out staff member becomes more stressed and maybe goes off sick and 2. the next person is not warned - because they are the only things that can be changed.

As another PP has said, it can be pretty impossible to make certain patients wear a mask, for various reasons. I suppose we could tape them round the person’s head though?? Not sure this would be legal, however, or kind.

I am horrified that you attacked this patient in this manner. Poor man had his medical information divulged and was then attacked by you, how flipping awful. I hope he makes a complaint. How would you have felt if he was your father, being treated like that?

I treat covid positive patients for prolonged periods wearing exactly what you were wearing and they don't have a mask on. I just get on with it. You were wearing ppe for a reason remember. Common sense would dictate that you don't get in the lift with strangers at the minute.

YANBU. I'd be really concerned about this too and would complain. I'm not sure exemption from mask-wearing should cover being covid positive inside a hospital, or at least if someone can't wear a mask for a reason like dementia, then there could be better planning if they are moved, like making sure corridors are clear of people and cleaning the lift after use. But ideally there should be areas of the hospital that are designated for covid patients only and as little mixing of people as possible, for the safety of staff working in the building, as much as patients and visitors.

you need to show a bit of compassion for the man in the lift op

You are 'furious' because you experienced a tiny taste of what health care professionals have been dealing with day after day for months?
I think you need a good dose of perspective and personal responsibility.