Furious after hospital visit WWYD?

[DameLucy]

Sorry this might be long. I’m just so furious and don’t know what to do so would welcome some perspective.
My elderly father was taken into hospital on Tuesday after a fall at home and was admitted overnight.
The following day, yesterday, I made an appointment to visit. One visitor only, only 2 in a bay at any one time so one hour appointments needed to be made. When I turned up for my appointment, staff met me and ensured I had mask, apron and gloves on prior to going into his bay.
As I arrived in the bay, dad was with the physiotherapist and nursing staff who told me that he could go home and that they had organised an ambulance to take him. It turned out that dad, in a wheelchair, and two ambulance staff were standing waiting for the lift outside his ward at the same time as me as we left at the same time.
As the lift came, there was a patient, in pyjamas, in a wheelchair with a hospital staff member - in a nurses type of uniform but accept that she may not have actually been a nurse - could have been another staff member - in the lift.
I said to the ambulance guys with my father to go in and I would walk down the stairs. As I said this I realised that only 3 people could use the lift at any one time so as there was already 2 people in, the ambulance guys told me to get in the lift and they would wait for the next lift with dad.
As I stepped in the lift, the woman with the patient said to me “You may wish to wait for another lift as this gentleman is Covid positive”. Just at that moment as I stepped out of the lift I looked at the gentleman in the wheelchair and noticed that his mask was balanced on his top lip. I said to him “Your mask should be covering the whole of your mouth and your nose”. I was totally shocked! The nurse/staff member then said “I know but it keeps slipping down”. I was so shocked to say anything else and the lift doors closed and off they went.
It was only afterwards that I realised that the hospital were allowing COVID positive patients to share the same lifts as other patients, like my 88 year old father, and visitors to the hospital.
The ambulance guys said that in other areas there were “Red” lifts and “Green” lifts to stop this type of thing, but apparently this doesn’t happen in my area!
I mean, the hospital were so particular that visitors wear the full PPE - which is totally the right thing to do, but now I think what the hell is the point when they’re shunting COVID positive patients around the hospital, mixing with other patients and visitors and not even ensuring their mask is covering their face!
I feel like making a complaint to the hospital but I have no idea who the staff member was. I deeply regret not asking her name or looking at her badge but I was so shocked at the time and it was over in minutes, so probably it’s pointless. I wouldn’t even know who to complain to tbh.

WWYD? Should I just let it go as I’ve no proof of this happening or would you make a complaint - or am I just over reacting?

I'd make it my personal policy not to share a lift with anyone at the moment and for all we know the nurse is fed up of people and the man isn't Covid positive at all just fed up.

@Happydaysforever123

The patients information shouldn't have been divulged. However surely it is possible to have lifts designated covid and non covid within the hospital. Lifts are an enclosed Space do it would seem a sensible precaution.

There are very few Covid patients in hospital. Designating a whole lift to such a small subgroup would probably be very impractical.

what can you do if a patients mask keeps slipping down? Sellotape it to their face

Exchange it for another one? Keep pulling it back up for them? Ask them to hold it in place? Tie the loops so that it sits more snugly?

There are options before resorting to sellotape.

I would complain! I'm already annoyed when I take the lift at the train station with DS in his pushchair and others squeeze themselves in to the point where they're practically touching me instead of waiting another 2 minutes until it went up and came down empty again.

I would be seriously upset if a hospital would let me use the same lift as a Covid patient who doesn't even properly wear a mask.

YANBU at all!

@CringeInwardly

what can you do if a patients mask keeps slipping down? Sellotape it to their face

Exchange it for another one? Keep pulling it back up for them? Ask them to hold it in place? Tie the loops so that it sits more snugly?

There are options before resorting to sellotape.

How do you know they hadn't already exhausted these options?

I'm sorry you had this experience OP. Pre Covid I was involved in the care of my very elderly Dad in hospital. The whole thing was a nightmare. Some staff, lovely, empathic, hard working, some not. When I asked why a dying 92 year old was being given physio, I was manhandled by a nurse who told me it was policy. It was cruel.
I was encouraged by the hospice staff to complain. In the end I couldn't muster the energy.

I would have been hysterical. And I’m not really a hysterical person or fierce lockdowner, in spite of being a shielder.

When I last went to the hospital there were some patients who clearly had dementia whose masks were askew or being held on by staff. It is a problem, I can see.

It's lax attitudes like this that have caused people to avoid hospitals as much as possible in the pandemic. It was already acknowledged that hospitals were hotspots for transmissions during the first wave and staff had to be told not to cluster together in the canteens and during Clap for Carers. My grandad around the same age is in hospital at the moment with a weak heart & in severe pain but is still desperate to be discharged as he's terrified he'll catch the virus in his condition.

Also for anyone complaining about the mask not being perfect think of your house, you lock the doors and windows, you leave lights on, you set an alarm and you still buy home insurance. No one method is fool proof which is why you wear a mask, distance and reduce contacts.

I’m so confused by some of the posters here, who think the issue at play was the OP being rude at the hospital? The OP is worried about how relaxed the hospital appear to be about Covid procedures, potentially putting other patients and visitors at risk. Many of the people who died from Covid—including someone I know—died in exactly this way. Clealry rbe hospfial doesn’t have a proper procedure in place for this.

Also the patient is coming from a Covid only area, moving into another Covid area, all of which are mapped out in different colours, and supposed to be kept far from other patients. So at people who seem to think this is a situation of disclosing private medical data

Try getting mum's husband, who is an alcholic with dementia in a care home, to keep a mask on properly. Go on, try it, all you arm chair experts.

He is an alchoholic and unpleasant and aggresive and has dementia. And he has the same human rights as all of you. So what are you going to do?

@Meuniere

That article seems most concerned with droplet spread, and that airbourne spread may be possible, but not confirmed.

Airborne particle spread of SARS-CoV-2
Diseases that can be transmitted by airborne particles, such as measles and varicella, can travel much further, and in concentrated clouds, than those transmitted by large droplets, which drop from clouds more quickly. They can therefore expose others rapidly and at greater distance213 and may need different public health measures, including extended physical distancing. Laboratory studies also suggest SARS-CoV-1, SARS-CoV-2, and MERS-CoV viral particles are stable in airborne samples, with SARS-CoV-2 persistent for longest (up to 16 hours).1415
In a literature search for studies using air sampling techniques to detect viral particles surrounding covid-19 patients, we found nine studies in hospital and two in community settings. Seven of the hospital studies reported at least one airborne sample tested positive for SARS-CoV-2, though the proportion of positive samples across studies ranged between 2% and 64%.16171819202122 Only two reported positive results in relation to distance from an infected patient (one at 2 m18 and another at ≥4 m in the corridor17). Of the two hospital studies that did not find SARS-CoV-2 particles in air samples,2324 one collected positive swab samples from ventilation units in the patient’s room, which is consistent with airborne droplet spread.23
Neither community study reported positive air samples, although one collected specimens up to 17 days after covid-19 carriers had left the room25 and the other did not report time of sampling since cleaning or sampling distance from the infected person.26 These negative studies thus fall substantially short of proving that airborne spread does not occur.
Only two of the airborne sampling studies directly measured whether SARS-CoV-2 in the samples remained infectious, rather than just analysing for the presence of viral RNA.1821 No viable virus was found in either, though one found signs of viral ability to replicate.18 Of note, no study found viable virus on surface swabs.
These studies were small, observational, and heterogeneous in terms of setting, participants, sample collection, and handling methods. They were prone to recall bias (few people can accurately recall how close they came to others when asked to remember some time later). Overall, these studies seem to support the possibility of airborne spread of SARS-CoV-2, but they do not confirm that there is a risk of disease transmission.

I would be interested to see other research that wasn't small observational studies though.

@TheNavigator well if he had tested positive for covid and was in hospital around vulnerable people, you would hope that the hospital had procedures that meant it wouldn't be hugely problematic for him to not wear a mask. Obviously this isn't the case and people have needlessly died after contracting it in hospital, but you get my drift.

@LaBellina

I would be seriously upset if a hospital would let me use the same lift As a Covid patient who isn’t properly using a mask.

Well then you would have been happy about what happened, because OP was prevented from sharing the lift after she so irresponsibly tried to get it in whilst she was verbally abusing a patient.

Send some feedback to Pals.
The mask thing I can understand, the staff can’t be constantly reminding people to pull them up, wear them properly etc.
Allowing a known Covid positive patient to share lifts with others?! Nope. Not happy with that.

Well, it’s a top trumps of human rights, isn’t it? Someone’s right to not be infected I think trumps the right of a dementia patient not to be distressed. And, of course, no healthcare worker should be cast aside in the name of “rights” for others.

I did think “fever hospitals” should be resurrected, but it begs the question of what you do if an infected person breaks their arm etc and needs to access other services.

I firmly advocate the return to cottage hospitals. Having spent a long time in hospital last year, 95% of the beds were occupied by the very elderly and nearly all had dementia. And, for those who think nobody ever dies every other night a trolley surreptitiously squeaked off down the corridor with a body bag on it.

I think there are always going to be difficulties this virus with other health complaints and other patients, visitors etc.

I would say it sounds less than ideal. However, there may not be other options. Frankly, Infectious patients do share lifts with visitors and other patients through all of time, if you knew the person had flu you probably wouldn't be as concerned.

However, I would bring it to the attention of PALS, sometimes people at top are so detached that they fail to see the issues in front of their faces, there is maybe an easy fix, but equally there may not be a way of fixing the situation either.

[quote Scaraffito]@TheNavigator well if he had tested positive for covid and was in hospital around vulnerable people, you would hope that the hospital had procedures that meant it wouldn't be hugely problematic for him to not wear a mask. Obviously this isn't the case and people have needlessly died after contracting it in hospital, but you get my drift.[/quote]
But he might wear a mask. He may be compliant. But then he might pull it off. You need to move him. It is urgent. He starts with a mask. Then what? You can have all the rules and procedures you like, but patients can be unpredictable and unreasonable. That is what health care professionals have to deal with every day. And they have to respect everyone's rights while doing it. It is so easy behind a screen, but much trickier in real life.

I am so shocked by this! Definitely complain via PALs

He is an alchoholic and unpleasant and aggresive and has dementia. And he has the same human rights as all of you. So what are you going to do?

Make sure corridors are kept clear while he is being moved? Clean the lift before it goes back in use? Put signage up limiting lift usage to one person/group?

It's not ignoring patients' rights to have clear procedures for transporting covid patients, including what to do when patients can't wear a mask.

"Make sure corridors are kept clear while he is being moved?"
edithjefferson you clearly know nothing about how hospitals work.

"Put signage up limiting lift usage to one person/group?"
@edithjefferson and please read my post up thread!

@edithjefferson well said

Atm the official line from Public Health England is that covid is droplet spread, not aerosol spread (unless doing particular medical procedures at the time), so surgical masks and maintaining a 2m distance between patients should be adequate (not saying it definitely is, but that's what we are being told by infection control).

There’s mounting evidence that it is aerosol spread, but health protocols have not been updated. WHO just say airborne transmission is possible in some circumstances.

This thread is a good lesson that anyone, particularly elderly, should be super careful in hospital environments,

Thing is the OP could have waited for another lift. But what about a patient/visitor who doesnt give a stuff about covid, (or the person pushing their wheelchair) doesn't who when told "this person has Covid" airily says "oh its all a hoax anyway". And then they catch it (or the probably medically vulnerable person they are with does) and then pass it on to others around the hospital/community.
Its not like seatbelts where the only person likely to be affected is that person. Its more like drink driving. So in my opinion they shouldn't give people the option to share a lift with a covid+ patient (or at all).

That said I wouldnt want to hold a grudge against the nurse as an individual. They have as a group been heroic over the last few months. But you can criticise the processes.