Furious after hospital visit WWYD?

[DameLucy]

Sorry this might be long. I’m just so furious and don’t know what to do so would welcome some perspective.
My elderly father was taken into hospital on Tuesday after a fall at home and was admitted overnight.
The following day, yesterday, I made an appointment to visit. One visitor only, only 2 in a bay at any one time so one hour appointments needed to be made. When I turned up for my appointment, staff met me and ensured I had mask, apron and gloves on prior to going into his bay.
As I arrived in the bay, dad was with the physiotherapist and nursing staff who told me that he could go home and that they had organised an ambulance to take him. It turned out that dad, in a wheelchair, and two ambulance staff were standing waiting for the lift outside his ward at the same time as me as we left at the same time.
As the lift came, there was a patient, in pyjamas, in a wheelchair with a hospital staff member - in a nurses type of uniform but accept that she may not have actually been a nurse - could have been another staff member - in the lift.
I said to the ambulance guys with my father to go in and I would walk down the stairs. As I said this I realised that only 3 people could use the lift at any one time so as there was already 2 people in, the ambulance guys told me to get in the lift and they would wait for the next lift with dad.
As I stepped in the lift, the woman with the patient said to me “You may wish to wait for another lift as this gentleman is Covid positive”. Just at that moment as I stepped out of the lift I looked at the gentleman in the wheelchair and noticed that his mask was balanced on his top lip. I said to him “Your mask should be covering the whole of your mouth and your nose”. I was totally shocked! The nurse/staff member then said “I know but it keeps slipping down”. I was so shocked to say anything else and the lift doors closed and off they went.
It was only afterwards that I realised that the hospital were allowing COVID positive patients to share the same lifts as other patients, like my 88 year old father, and visitors to the hospital.
The ambulance guys said that in other areas there were “Red” lifts and “Green” lifts to stop this type of thing, but apparently this doesn’t happen in my area!
I mean, the hospital were so particular that visitors wear the full PPE - which is totally the right thing to do, but now I think what the hell is the point when they’re shunting COVID positive patients around the hospital, mixing with other patients and visitors and not even ensuring their mask is covering their face!
I feel like making a complaint to the hospital but I have no idea who the staff member was. I deeply regret not asking her name or looking at her badge but I was so shocked at the time and it was over in minutes, so probably it’s pointless. I wouldn’t even know who to complain to tbh.

WWYD? Should I just let it go as I’ve no proof of this happening or would you make a complaint - or am I just over reacting?

@Scaraffito

The hospital is for the patients, not visitors tbh.

Weirdly when in with my DS not long ago I was expected to do quite a bit, if I hadn't been there they didn't have the staff to do his nebuliser overnight, or administer his suppository. Same with maternity care, visitors actually end up doing a lot of basic care that staff should do, but as they're understaffed don't.

Protect the NHS everyone, even though it can't protect itself and if you're vulnerable you're probably taking your chances staying away from hospitals.

Yes, in thise cases the visitors being there benefited the patients, weirdly In this case, there was no benefit to the patient. He was being discharged. And the visitor being there just meant the op was at risk of contracting Covid, unfortunately

@happywearingmymaskallday no I don't know how hospitals work (though I have been in lots of them, as a patient, volunteer and visitor) but I think it's reasonable to expect very clear and strict policies on moving infectious patients around in the current situation. Surely staff unions expect this too?

I read your post and I sympathise a lot with you having to deal with the stupidity and intransigence of entitled Covid-deniers, but the OP sounds like she would have abided by signage and would have felt protected by the system you have in your hospital.

It is so easy behind a screen, but much trickier in real life.

I didn't say it was easy. Having 2 friends who have lost parents to covid who caught it in hospital whilst in for unrelated things, what about their rights? It's disgusting to be frank, we have been told to halt normal life, some lose their livelihoods to protect a system that cannot protect its staff and vulnerable patients.

But the OP was told not to share the lift. It was the ambulance men who suggested it, and they were not aware of the man's diagnosis.
I feel extremely sorry for the gentleman whose privacy was compromised, I guess in that instant the nurse was just thinking on her feet and better for the OP that she said something.

They are people,not packages or parcels to get ' shunted '.have some respect please.
I hope your df is ok.

Masks may not be perfect but they cut out larger droplets and they slow the speed of aerosols and therefore reduce the risk from those too.

Hospitals are busy places. I'm afraid it's totally unrealistic to expect someone to ring a plague bell to clear corridors before moving a patient. Nor can you separate covid and non infected patients completely because the tests are not 100% reliable, especially if someone is in the later stages of infection. So yes, some people will acquire the infection in hospital, despite the best efforts to avoid it.

Perhaps all those who think it is so easy would like to sign up to be a nurse, since they could do so much better?

Well no, there would no point signing up as a nurse as despite them knowing better than anyone what is within the realms of possibility and what measures would be effective, they don't get a say in decisions (wrongly). It's the bosses either in offices or who haven't been on the 'shopfloor' for a while you want to be to make ridiculous decisions.

edithjefferson you suggested we "Make sure corridors are kept clear while he is being moved?"
If you as knowledgeable as you think you are then you should quickly realise that this is not possible in a large hospital. 1. some patients when they need to be moved they need to be moved now we cannot wait for other patients Covid free or not to be out of the way. 2. when moving any patient around the person pushing them could come form any dept; portering obviously but nurses, physios, OTs doctors even relatives move patients around no one can coordinate all that lot to make sure that when a Covid patient is being moved that no one else is moving patients especially as most hospitals are large sprawling complexes with many corridors, flights of stairs, lifts, entrances and exit. 3. Unless you've literally just received a negative test any one could be Covid19 positive the NHS cant clean everything after every patient goes into a lift or for that matter every member of staff I could be Covid 19 positive and not know. So in a high organisation they have to do their very best to protect patients and their families and friends and of course staff. Everywhere should be regularly cleaned, patients and their families and friends and staff should follow directions we have a "keep left" policy, only use certain doors etc, lifts which are reserved for patients should not be being used by anyone else and we also have a only two people on a lift at a time (where possible) policy if staff patients etc ignore this is then that ultimately is their risk but also selfish.
Over the last few months I have had numerous relatives aggressively shouting at me because they are only allowed to visit for 1 hour a day, or only one relative is allowed to visit (we make exceptions rightly for the dying) or that the have to book their time slot, everyone seems to think that they should be the exception, or try to flout these rules. I'm not denying its shit only be able to see you relative for 1 hour a day but we are trying desperately hard to protect all our patients and of course the staff. My trust has lost two consultants too Covid 19 I don't know how many staff we've lost across the whole;e NHS but I believe its over 500 I accept that not all got it from work or through of lack of PPE but if only 2 or 3 did then thats till 2 or 3 too many.
So please don't sit in your arm chair pontificating about something you clearly know nothing about, criticising what we are all doing, we are all trying our very best to manage a very difficult and stressful situation. So many stood on their doorsteps and clapped for us displayed their NHS rainbows but are quick to become critical and aggressive when things aren't going as you'd like. This is demoralising for the over stretched and stressed NHS staff. There was an article on the BBC news yesterday warning that NHS staff are really going to struggle to cope if there is a second wave and hospital admissions rise dramatically, in my opinion this is very true as many are already well beyond breaking point. I couldn't care less if no one ever clapped again for displayed a rainbow I would just like some understanding of the situation we're in from Jo Public we really are trying to do our very best for you.

Honestly, I can totally see why nursing is so short on staff. They can't do right whatever they do.

What did you expect her to do? Hold his mask up? What if he refused to wear one full stop?

Perhaps all those who think it is so easy would like to sign up to be a nurse, since they could do so much better?

I think I'm one of the people you mean? I don't think it's at all easy or that I could do better. I have not criticised nurses, but I do think those who manage NHS services should be expected to demonstrate that they have systems in place to minimise risk, particularly when the situation is likely to get much worse in coming weeks. I think we're all entitled to comment on what our taxes are spent on and the public services that are there to protect us, not just the workers in those services. I have huge respect for nurses and other hospital staff, and would not like to be in your position, and part of that respect is believing that you deserve protection by things like adequate staffing and equipment and well-designed procedures.

I work in a well run hospital.
The hospital in this case sounds absolutely appalling.

@happywearingmymaskallday I accept I'm wrong about clearing corridors. I had not meant to criticise NHS staff and I feel sad that your jobs are made harder by aggressive and obstructive members of the public, and really sorry that your colleagues have died. I was trying to defend staff and say that you deserve better, but I'm sorry my words have caused offence and I will not post any more. I hope you stay safe and well over the coming months.

I'm feeling nervous about my mother at the moment. She's just got home after 4 days and nights in hospital treating a badly infected finger (feral cat bite - she and a neighbour have been trying to trap them). She's not in the UK so I've only talked with her on the phone, but the amount of patient movement concerned me - she was in a different part of the ward every night. She assured me that she'd seen a lot more cleaning going on but (from our experience before my dad died a few years ago) they don't need to do that much cleaning for it to represent more than they used to. Then when I was looking up some stuff about the hospital I discover they had a covid outbreak less than 4 weeks ago.

I am crossing my fingers very tightly for at least another week. If she gets it her prognosis is pretty poor and I'm not even sure I'd be able to get a flight in a hurry either.

@Florencex

I mean even AFTER the patient had used the lift. I'm pretty sure that I read somewhere this week that particles of the virus remain in an enclosed space such as a lift for even a few hours after the infected person was there. So yes I would be very pissed of even if the hospital let everyone immediately or within a few hours use the same lift as a Covid patient - who wasn't wearing a mask properly. I thought that it would be pretty obvious to most people that there is more then a chance that that lift isn't safe the minute the Covid patient walks out but appearently not for you.

I'm not a nurse - I just think about the difficulty of actually trying to do what was suggested in a busy environment. Every time someone has to explain something that other people could have thought of by themselves they are not spending time treating patients.

What happened is a huge problem, but recognising that doesn't mean you are attaching any blame to the staff member involved or the patient. If the hospital protocol is inadequate that isn't their fault.

It’s very poor management. The hospital should have a robust infection control team constantly monitoring these issues and coming up with solutions. The nurses and other HCWs should in turn raise any such issues with the infection control team. Not shrug and be defensive like a nurse was earlier on this thread - although that nurse may herself work in a poorly managed hospital and so feel powerless.

I just wanted to add my baby son was kept in isolation at our local hospital last year and all he had was bronchiolitis (although can be fatal but his was caught very early, didn't require oxygen etc). The staff were so disciplined about infection control, they even banned my other kids from going to the ward's play area when visiting, kept a good distance when talking, wore aprons, gloves, etc. I'm so glad my local hospital has such diligent staff.

The total lack of understand as to how difficult the situation is staggers me.
For the record I don't drive into work thinking how can I expose as many of my patients (or myself and staff) unnecessarily to Covid19, I move patients around the ward not because Ive got nothing better to do with my time or because I get a real kick out of worrying relatives but because I have to for clinical reasons which I don't have to justify to relatives.
Luckily Im not responsible for lift cleaning and I agree that its not ideal that Covid 19 patients positive go in the same as everyone else but as our lifts are frequently out of order for various reasons we may not be able to stop using a a particular lift whilst its being cleaned, its not uncommon for us to wait over an hour for a deep clean. Secondly we don't know how many patients relatives staff etc are covid 19 positive and are symptomless and obviously we cant clean the lifts every time someone uses it. All any one can do is reduce risk and I suspect the chances of you catching Covid from a lift are relatively small, whereas the risk of catching Covid19 on a ward either as a visitor, member of staff or patient is obviously much higher so energies are concentrated on reducing risk there.
Wearing masks properly is a thorny issue it seems like common sense to me that you wear one appropriately and properly but again people seem to think that rules dont apply to them. I have said on another thread that no one really knows if they offer protection from Covid19 although there is some evidence that they might reduce viral load so this is very relevant to health care workers. But until we definitively know one way or another Im going to keep wearing mine properly and I just don't get why others cant do the same with out being constantly told too or endlessly moaning about it.

Some good points there. I agree in a busy hospital it is very difficult.

"The nurses and other HCWs should in turn raise any such issues with the infection control team."
Have you any idea how busy we are? We haven't got time to go to the loo let alone "raise such issues". Secondly Im a ward sister I've contacted infection control asking can we do X or Y they don't know the answer, we're all struggling to work out how we can minimise the risk and still keep functioning and offering as many service as we can because that is what you and we want. We cannot say that we've eliminated all risk, it's a balance how much do you need to be in hospital having X procedure or Y treatment against the risk of you getting Covid19 or you or your family etc giving Covid19 to the high risk patient in the bed next door or the 55+ year old consultant from the BAME community.

@happywearingmymaskallday

"The nurses and other HCWs should in turn raise any such issues with the infection control team." Have you any idea how busy we are? We haven't got time to go to the loo let alone "raise such issues". Secondly Im a ward sister I've contacted infection control asking can we do X or Y they don't know the answer, we're all struggling to work out how we can minimise the risk and still keep functioning and offering as many service as we can because that is what you and we want. We cannot say that we've eliminated all risk, it's a balance how much do you need to be in hospital having X procedure or Y treatment against the risk of you getting Covid19 or you or your family etc giving Covid19 to the high risk patient in the bed next door or the 55+ year old consultant from the BAME community.

I know how busy it is. I work in a hospital myself. I’m not blaming ward sisters but I would blame poor infection control policy and enforcement by management if a Covid positive patient travels around the hospital with no mask. And yes staff should have time to report issues like that. You’ve got time to sit and post on this thread, why not email your IC team? In turn, the IC team should be responsive and effective. Difficult to achieve everything I agree, but surely maskless Covid +ve patients in a lift should be a no no. Unless of course the nurse in the lift was just saying it to make the visitors stay out of the lift - in which case, fair enough!

Again - this is not directed at ward sisters.
Hats off to you people!

My dad is in the final stages of cancer. We've been working closely with the hospice co-ordinator, social services, his doctors and nurses and an ambulance was booked to drive him to a nursing home for his final weeks to get the care he needs as he is immobile.
The ambulance drivers arrived and instead of loading him up like they were supposed to, they decided to treat it like a 999 call and assess him.

The paramedic decided he was to go in to A&E because he was immobile and his oxygen levels were low. We knew this. It is a direct result of him being in the process of dying, his body shutting down.
He is DNR.

Dad's partner objected and said he was to go to the home. My sister (dad's POA) said he was to go to the home. His social worker said the same. The paramedic disagreed.

They took him to A&E where he was placed in a double bay.... with a Covid patient FFS!

So instead of him being in a cosy, safe care home where family could visit him (two family members a week) and speak to him over FaceTime organised by the home, they risked him dying alone in a hospital, choking on Covid.

It was sheer luck that he tested negative and social services got him into the home two days later. He's still there now with lovely nurses who are happy to work dad's phone for him so he can call my sister and I each day while he still can. (Even if he is confused as hell and thinks he's on the run from the police, at war and worst yet, dead and cremated already )

Sorry, I meant to say, do as we did. Complain complain complain. The NHS are very aware of the dangers and horror of Covid and should be doing more than us, Joe public! We should not be catching Covid in hospitals. They're far better equipped to have decent infection controls in place.