Furious after hospital visit WWYD?

[DameLucy]

Sorry this might be long. I’m just so furious and don’t know what to do so would welcome some perspective.
My elderly father was taken into hospital on Tuesday after a fall at home and was admitted overnight.
The following day, yesterday, I made an appointment to visit. One visitor only, only 2 in a bay at any one time so one hour appointments needed to be made. When I turned up for my appointment, staff met me and ensured I had mask, apron and gloves on prior to going into his bay.
As I arrived in the bay, dad was with the physiotherapist and nursing staff who told me that he could go home and that they had organised an ambulance to take him. It turned out that dad, in a wheelchair, and two ambulance staff were standing waiting for the lift outside his ward at the same time as me as we left at the same time.
As the lift came, there was a patient, in pyjamas, in a wheelchair with a hospital staff member - in a nurses type of uniform but accept that she may not have actually been a nurse - could have been another staff member - in the lift.
I said to the ambulance guys with my father to go in and I would walk down the stairs. As I said this I realised that only 3 people could use the lift at any one time so as there was already 2 people in, the ambulance guys told me to get in the lift and they would wait for the next lift with dad.
As I stepped in the lift, the woman with the patient said to me “You may wish to wait for another lift as this gentleman is Covid positive”. Just at that moment as I stepped out of the lift I looked at the gentleman in the wheelchair and noticed that his mask was balanced on his top lip. I said to him “Your mask should be covering the whole of your mouth and your nose”. I was totally shocked! The nurse/staff member then said “I know but it keeps slipping down”. I was so shocked to say anything else and the lift doors closed and off they went.
It was only afterwards that I realised that the hospital were allowing COVID positive patients to share the same lifts as other patients, like my 88 year old father, and visitors to the hospital.
The ambulance guys said that in other areas there were “Red” lifts and “Green” lifts to stop this type of thing, but apparently this doesn’t happen in my area!
I mean, the hospital were so particular that visitors wear the full PPE - which is totally the right thing to do, but now I think what the hell is the point when they’re shunting COVID positive patients around the hospital, mixing with other patients and visitors and not even ensuring their mask is covering their face!
I feel like making a complaint to the hospital but I have no idea who the staff member was. I deeply regret not asking her name or looking at her badge but I was so shocked at the time and it was over in minutes, so probably it’s pointless. I wouldn’t even know who to complain to tbh.

WWYD? Should I just let it go as I’ve no proof of this happening or would you make a complaint - or am I just over reacting?

@Meuniere

Seeing that the main transmission mode is the air and that one person infected about 30 persons in a high rise building just because they used the lift AFTER them (not at the same time...), I think you are totally reasonable @DameLucy.

I get the issue about the number of lifts, where they are etc... however, in that case, there is a need to put more protection in place. Eg patients HAVE TO wear a mask.

If it is airbourne, then surgical masks won't do much. They don't filter tiny aerosols and don't fit around peoples faces tight enough.

They need a sign on the lifts,saying "Do not share lifts with people from other households, unless they are providing your medical care."

Why on earth was the health care person breaking the patient's confidentiality to a complete stranger, that is unacceptable

pretty sure you misheard op and definitely should not have been in the lift in the first place, it is a hospital

People can test positive for weeks after they cease to be infectious. There was probably no risk to you and your Dad at all.
However she absolutely shouldnt have disclosed any information about her patient to you.

to clarify, op should not have been in the lift with patient, covid positive or not!

The patients information shouldn't have been divulged.
However surely it is possible to have lifts designated covid and non covid within the hospital. Lifts are an enclosed Space do it would seem a sensible precaution.

did the staff member have a mask in your tale op?

The point of the post wasn't about whether she got the lift, it was about the practices at the hospital more generally.
OP, I would complain

@dancinfeet

Can I just get this right? Covid patients can be exempt from wearing a mask, but we wear masks to protect others?? By this definition, some covid patients are exempt from protecting others? I can completely understand that a seriously ill patient on a covid ward might be unable to wear a mask, but if they are being moved from one area of the hospital to another possibly passing or using lifts that may also be used by vulnerable non- covid patients then surely it is a basic duty of care to other patients to ensure that they wear a mask for the duration of time that they are off the covid ward? They may not like it or want to but it is essential. Or if the mask makes so little difference, why are we all wearing them in the first place just 'in case' we are asymptomatic or presymptomatic? In the words of Mumsnet: "The rights of the covid patient to not wear a mask do not trump the rights of all other hospital patients, staff and visitors to be safe" . I sympathise with the staff who are sick of telling people to pull their masks up, but I think with a covid positive patient that a firm word about it as a priority, for the safety of others.

Being exempt from wearing a mask is not "not wanting to" ffs

The patients information shouldn't have been divulged.
However surely it is possible to have lifts designated covid and non covid within the hospital. Lifts are an enclosed Space do it would seem a sensible precaution

...and how would patients confidentiality be maintained if they were getting in a lift that said "covid patients only" on it?

Bloody hell, that’s unacceptable.
The state of the NHS is truly shocking but I think too many people accept the chronic underfunding and incompetence as acceptable, when it is far from acceptable.

Definitely complain because until enough people complain, nothing will change and many more people (patients & visitors) will get infected when in hospital, due to poor practices.

Fair point, but to be honest if I had covid in hospital i would rather not put other people at risk. Covid isn't an illness with any stigma attached

Please complain. My grandad has just tested positive after being in hospital for 12 days. He is extremely vulnerable, has been fighting everything for 15 years and now has covid from hospital! This could kill him. Fighting everything and surviving for this to be the thing that gets him. I am furious and it will be because of something like this.

I stayed in a hotel a couple of months ago.
There were signs then about not sharing the lift with people outside of your household.
I'm surprised this wasn't in place at a hospital.

@TheNavigator

You are 'furious' because you experienced a tiny taste of what health care professionals have been dealing with day after day for months? I think you need a good dose of perspective and personal responsibility.

The OP shouldn't need to experience a taste of what healthcare professionals deal with, regardless this isn't about her it's about her concern for her vulnerable father and other people.

The hospital is accountable for their risk management and this is below par.

Not covid related, but I went into hospital last year go give birth and contracted a deadly iGAS infection which turned into sepsis. Two other women on the ward went down with the same and we could have died.

Infection control needs to be far, far tighter than it is especially when hospitals are enforcing such stringent rules on the wider public.

The hospital is for the patients, not visitors tbh.

Weirdly when in with my DS not long ago I was expected to do quite a bit, if I hadn't been there they didn't have the staff to do his nebuliser overnight, or administer his suppository. Same with maternity care, visitors actually end up doing a lot of basic care that staff should do, but as they're understaffed don't.

Protect the NHS everyone, even though it can't protect itself and if you're vulnerable you're probably taking your chances staying away from hospitals.

In my hospital which is a modern building we have lifts that are meant to be for patient use only but despite a bloody great notice and endless emails to staff no one including staff take any notice of this. I move critically ill patients around complete with lots of equipment and at least four members of staff and often we stand there waiting for a lift for 5 mins and when it arrives a couple of admin staff get out We are allowed to ask people to vacate the lift as we get priority and sometimes people initially refuse!!! Or the number of people who think they should be allowed to squeeze in the lift with a critically ill patient and we’ve had to point out that the patient is very unwell and often unstable and entitled to privacy. We also have a staff only door and again despite a bloody great big notice and No relative/visitor signs painted all over the paths relatives are always trying to get in or out and get quite stroppy when asked to go round to the patient/relative entrance (where they’ll be given a mask). Finally all the time I see non mask exempt patients and relatives with no masks on, masks on their chins under there noses or even on their foreheads non have dementia etc and I’m tired of asking then to put the back on and obvious slight irritation/eye roll that I get.

At one stage during this crisis we had no visitors I would be the first to admit this was pretty shot for the patients and their families but now visitors are back and seem to want us to take all the necessary precautions to prevent them from getting COVID-19 but complain and get aggressive when things aren’t going there way.
I agree the nurse shouldn’t have told you that the man in the lift had COVID-19 but maybe like most of us she was tired of having to politely ask relatives and non clinical staff to not come in the lift. We are all in a stressful situation at the moment trying to do our best and most us are trying to be professional at all times and keep our patients their friends and families ourselves and our families safe. Our beloved NHS which most of us believe in has collapsed without the upcoming winter pressures which will be made worse by COVID-19 we all are very worried about what this winter will bring. OP put yourself in the member of staff shoes all the above and your in a lift with a COVID-19 positive patient and is it surprising that occasionally someone may accidentally say the wrong thing please show a bit of humanity and understanding.

There was a thread on this site somewhere a couple of weeks ago where a clinically vulnerable lady, cancer patient I believe, went into hospital and caught a serious infection and then covid.

I echo a PP in that people should not be coming out of hospital with worse illnesses than they went in with.

I can't fathom how people can excuse this type of thing. Mind you, it is AIBU where people disagree for the sake of disagreeing.

@bethany39 no, but the man was wearing a mask. Incorrectly. Surely if he was exempt he wouldn't be wearing one. My point was about the other vulnerable people in the hospital who may have been vulnerable to covid patients being moved around the hospital into non covid areas; many of these vulnerable patients may have had their treatments paused / stopped because of covid and should not be put at risk .
I think the OP was daft trying to get into a lift with any other person, and if she couldn't manage the stairs carrying all the stuff she had to carry, should have just waited for the next lift. I don't think the staff member should have disclosed that the patient was covid positive either- just said firmly 'please take the next lift' or something to that effect to the OP. Reminders to visitors to take the stairs where possible and only use the lifts if absolutely necessary wouldn't go amiss (in this case it was justifiable that a 70 year old woman couldn't carry bags and equipment down numerous flights of stairs). My other point was about mask wearing in general- if we are being asked to wear masks to protect others and not ourselves, then as @Hobnobsandbroomstick said, the standard mask does not fit closely enough around the face so doesn't actually filter the particles. If a covid patient wearing a mask won't actually protect others around them from covid, then why are we all wearing masks in public just in case we have it? By this definition, if someone has it then the mask won't help anyway. I cannot get my head around this logic. Either masks protect others and should be worn, or they don't and are pointless.

Realistically this is just one of those situations you have to write off as unfortunate timing. The hospital is clearly trying their best to adhere to protocols. As @Hobnobsandbroomstick says, what can you do if a patients mask keeps slipping down? Sellotape it to their face. You say yourself, the hospital are doing what they can to protect patients and visitors by adhering to PPE guidelines etc, they can't police every single person and all your complaining is going to do is waste peoples time. It doesn't seem to me like there's anything more the hospital could've done. The nurse warned you he was COVID positive. What more do you want? What exactly do you think complaining will achieve?

I agree that hospitals have to function and it's not always possible to strictly adhere to regulations - Older hospital corridors just aren't 2 metres wide for example, so impossible to pass safely. Having said that the patient should have had the mask over their nose if the only issue was "slipping" - I'd definitely complain.

Some of the comments on here....keep hospitals Covid free, dont move Covid patients around, give them a seperate lift.......if only it were that easy.

@Hobnobsandbroomstick, thats worng sorry.

The virus IS airbone and masks DO help.
Just that piece of research about the importance of how many people are in an enclosed room re the danger. Incl how much mask make a difference. I can give you more research papers on that subject if you want, bt that is a very good summary.
www.bmj.com/content/370/bmj.m3223

@Hobnobsandbroomstick said, the standard mask does not fit closely enough around the face so doesn't actually filter the particles. If a covid patient wearing a mask won't actually protect others around them from covid, then why are we all wearing masks in public just in case we have it? By this definition, if someone has it then the mask won't help anyway. I cannot get my head around this logic. Either masks protect others and should be worn, or they don't and are pointless.

It is currently thought that covid is mostly spread by droplets released from talking, coughing, laughing etc, and is not airbourne in the tiny little aerosols. So masks should prevent droplets being spread.