Meet the Other Phone. Flexible and made to last.

Meet the Other Phone.
Flexible and made to last.

Buy now

Please or to access all these features

AIBU?

Share your dilemmas and get honest opinions from other Mumsnetters.

Furious after hospital visit WWYD?

153 replies

DameLucy · 07/10/2020 22:29

Sorry this might be long. I’m just so furious and don’t know what to do so would welcome some perspective.
My elderly father was taken into hospital on Tuesday after a fall at home and was admitted overnight.
The following day, yesterday, I made an appointment to visit. One visitor only, only 2 in a bay at any one time so one hour appointments needed to be made. When I turned up for my appointment, staff met me and ensured I had mask, apron and gloves on prior to going into his bay.
As I arrived in the bay, dad was with the physiotherapist and nursing staff who told me that he could go home and that they had organised an ambulance to take him. It turned out that dad, in a wheelchair, and two ambulance staff were standing waiting for the lift outside his ward at the same time as me as we left at the same time.
As the lift came, there was a patient, in pyjamas, in a wheelchair with a hospital staff member - in a nurses type of uniform but accept that she may not have actually been a nurse - could have been another staff member - in the lift.
I said to the ambulance guys with my father to go in and I would walk down the stairs. As I said this I realised that only 3 people could use the lift at any one time so as there was already 2 people in, the ambulance guys told me to get in the lift and they would wait for the next lift with dad.
As I stepped in the lift, the woman with the patient said to me “You may wish to wait for another lift as this gentleman is Covid positive”. Just at that moment as I stepped out of the lift I looked at the gentleman in the wheelchair and noticed that his mask was balanced on his top lip. I said to him “Your mask should be covering the whole of your mouth and your nose”. I was totally shocked! The nurse/staff member then said “I know but it keeps slipping down”. I was so shocked to say anything else and the lift doors closed and off they went.
It was only afterwards that I realised that the hospital were allowing COVID positive patients to share the same lifts as other patients, like my 88 year old father, and visitors to the hospital.
The ambulance guys said that in other areas there were “Red” lifts and “Green” lifts to stop this type of thing, but apparently this doesn’t happen in my area!
I mean, the hospital were so particular that visitors wear the full PPE - which is totally the right thing to do, but now I think what the hell is the point when they’re shunting COVID positive patients around the hospital, mixing with other patients and visitors and not even ensuring their mask is covering their face!
I feel like making a complaint to the hospital but I have no idea who the staff member was. I deeply regret not asking her name or looking at her badge but I was so shocked at the time and it was over in minutes, so probably it’s pointless. I wouldn’t even know who to complain to tbh.

WWYD? Should I just let it go as I’ve no proof of this happening or would you make a complaint - or am I just over reacting?

OP posts:
Scaraffito · 08/10/2020 13:07

The NHS are very aware of the dangers and horror of Covid

This is what is odd. We are run off our feet, covid is horrendous blah blah blah, which I don't doubt at all. But it's juxtaposed with but we can only do so much, we can't actually make attempts to ensure those who have tested positive don't come into contact with vulnerable people, beyond paltry measures which we can't adhere to anyway.

happywearingmymaskallday · 08/10/2020 13:14

"You’ve got time to sit and post on this thread, why not email your IC team?"
I cant believe you've written this! Do you really think I've got time to sit on MN whilst Im at work?
Why dont you think about this? Why have I got time to be on here. Oh yes I know I'm at home on my day off and believe it or not I try not to spend my very precious days off logging onto my NHS email.
Im leaving the thread now all this has shown is how out of touch everyone is with the demands of working in the NHS. In the long run we will all pay for this, staff are leaving hand over fist, nurses are not renewing their registration, we are the back bone of the NHS we no longer just mop brows or stand to attention when consultants come round we are with you from birth to death we are the people you will have the most contact with and who in 98% of cases will support you through everything, we make diagnosis initiate treatment undertake complex procedures, ensure you get the right treatment, and medication from our medical colleagues many of whom are less knowledgable than we are, we try our best to keep you safe, we advocate for you although you may not even know it and do 1000 other things but we virtually to a man are physically and emotionally exhausted and this was before Covid came along. Moan about all you like, report us to PALs if you want, but the future for the NHS and the care that you and I will receive in the future is in jeopardy because nurses are reaching the end of their tether.

Coronawireless · 08/10/2020 13:15

Because you are not supported by management.

Coronawireless · 08/10/2020 13:16

Some trusts manage it and others don’t!

Janegrey333 · 08/10/2020 13:18

Do complain. This is foolhardy, reckless behaviour and talk.

TheNavigator · 08/10/2020 13:30

@happywearingmymaskallday

"You’ve got time to sit and post on this thread, why not email your IC team?" I cant believe you've written this! Do you really think I've got time to sit on MN whilst Im at work? Why dont you think about this? Why have I got time to be on here. Oh yes I know I'm at home on my day off and believe it or not I try not to spend my very precious days off logging onto my NHS email. Im leaving the thread now all this has shown is how out of touch everyone is with the demands of working in the NHS. In the long run we will all pay for this, staff are leaving hand over fist, nurses are not renewing their registration, we are the back bone of the NHS we no longer just mop brows or stand to attention when consultants come round we are with you from birth to death we are the people you will have the most contact with and who in 98% of cases will support you through everything, we make diagnosis initiate treatment undertake complex procedures, ensure you get the right treatment, and medication from our medical colleagues many of whom are less knowledgable than we are, we try our best to keep you safe, we advocate for you although you may not even know it and do 1000 other things but we virtually to a man are physically and emotionally exhausted and this was before Covid came along. Moan about all you like, report us to PALs if you want, but the future for the NHS and the care that you and I will receive in the future is in jeopardy because nurses are reaching the end of their tether.
@happywearingmymaskallday I had a little inward gasp of disbelief when I read 'if you've got time to sit and post on this thread why don't you report' as it was blindingly obviously you would be mumsnetting on your days off, which nurses are actually allowed!

Don't let the armchair experts grind you down, they wouldn't last a moment doing what you and your colleagues have to do.

Rupertpenrysmistress · 08/10/2020 13:34

I am lucky in my trust as we do have green/red lifts but of course any patient you pass in the corridor could be positive as still need treatment and, of course there will be positive patients we don't know about.

I think visitors should be banned unless end of life or patients with additional needs/dementia. I am so fed up with visitors breaking rules, coming in early for visiting more than one at a time there is always an excuse. I have to be at work and I would appreciate people respecting this by protecting us also, I protect my patients, however I can count on one hand how many of my patients wear masks they just won't do it. What can I do? I have had patients refuse covid swabs.

Our trust is having several covid out breaks, that is why I think visiting should be stopped, I don't have the time to police the one hour one person visit so there can be times when I walk in a bay and the amount of visitors coupled with physics/Doctors/nurses. It is no wonder aware seeing more cases in hospitals.

By all means complain not sure what you want to achieve though, however the passing of personal information is very wrong. All of us need to behave as if anyone outside of our house poses us a risk of covid. I would not get into a lift with anyone else anyway (aside from work).

Coronawireless · 08/10/2020 13:46

I work in hospitals on the frontline. So I’m not an armchair expert.
However I like to think I’m fastidious about infection control. Because even though I am lucky enough to be in good health myself, one day I or a family member won’t be. So I along with (fortunately) many of my colleagues try to create a culture of good practice.

Cruachan31 · 08/10/2020 13:49

[quote Hobnobsandbroomstick]@LilyPond2 imagine if OPs MP was Margaret Ferrier, AKA Margaret Covid.

@Scaraffito everyone should be wearing a mask at all times in the hospital, regardless of whether they have tested positive or not. But patients are human beings with their own free will, and they don't always want to comply. Masks under noses is my pet hate, but other than asking them nicely or firmly, I don't have any power to make a patient do something that they don't want to do. Like I said, we can't sellotape the mask to their nose (though I wish we could).

Patients with covid can also have a medical exemption from wearing a mask.[/quote]
This particular patient obviously didn’t have an exemption though, did he??

I think the OP has good reason to complain that Covid patients are transported in the same lifts as other patients. You may be “sick of asking/telling patients and visitors to wear their mask properly now. I mean I still do it, but what else can you do if they keep pulling it down, sellotape it over their nose?!” and I do sympathise, but yes you do need to keep emphasising the importance of wearing a mask properly, especially in cases where Covid has been diagnosed. Could a piece of tape, such as transpore (which is fairly kind to skin), be used to help secure masks in know Covid patients?

Coronawireless · 08/10/2020 13:49

You need good management though so if you don’t have that I sympathise.
Getting all defensive helps nobody though.

TheNavigator · 08/10/2020 13:51

@Coronawireless - are you a nurse? If so, I appreciate you are doing a difficult job during an unprecedently tough time.

FlitterMouse · 08/10/2020 13:55

Was the person in uniform a hospital member of staff, they could have been anyone, were they in any ppe if they were accompanying a covid patient. It must be near impossible to not have covid or other infectious patients in lifts, corridors, examination or scan rooms, disclosing a pstients status is really bad. You wouldnt expect that from a genuine member of staff.

ChasingRainbows19 · 08/10/2020 14:49

Our hospital isn’t even letting visitors in and hasn’t for months. We don’t have have red or green lifts or stairs. Covid positive patients attend scans and other departments/moved wards: the staff accompanying get a basic mask, apron and gloves. This includes porters doing this all day long not just medical staff.

Patients are encouraged to wear masks but how do you suggest we physically force them? Lots of reasons from PP why it happens they don’t or can’t.The staff member shouldn’t have disclosed the info they could of just asked you to wait to be honest.

Most older general hospitals aren’t built for this kind of pandemic and we are making the best of what we have. It’s been a difficult six months, guidance changes as the research and guidance regarding covid becomes clear.

Staff are trying so hard to deal with this and work with patients as normally as possible and keep them safe. Because we really do care and want the best for them. But it’s so difficult, we are drained and heading into our busiest period pre pandemic.

ChasingRainbows19 · 08/10/2020 14:59

Also hospitals in the north have absolutely got lots of covid patients in... not quite like March/April yet. But Covid wards full or filling up and icu beds taken.

3rdNamechange · 08/10/2020 16:03

Probably wouldn't complain but the member of staff shouldn't have told you the patient's diagnosis. If I have a patient in the lift I ask public to wait for the next one.

UseOfWeapons · 08/10/2020 18:59

@happywearingmymaskallday

"You’ve got time to sit and post on this thread, why not email your IC team?" I cant believe you've written this! Do you really think I've got time to sit on MN whilst Im at work? Why dont you think about this? Why have I got time to be on here. Oh yes I know I'm at home on my day off and believe it or not I try not to spend my very precious days off logging onto my NHS email. Im leaving the thread now all this has shown is how out of touch everyone is with the demands of working in the NHS. In the long run we will all pay for this, staff are leaving hand over fist, nurses are not renewing their registration, we are the back bone of the NHS we no longer just mop brows or stand to attention when consultants come round we are with you from birth to death we are the people you will have the most contact with and who in 98% of cases will support you through everything, we make diagnosis initiate treatment undertake complex procedures, ensure you get the right treatment, and medication from our medical colleagues many of whom are less knowledgable than we are, we try our best to keep you safe, we advocate for you although you may not even know it and do 1000 other things but we virtually to a man are physically and emotionally exhausted and this was before Covid came along. Moan about all you like, report us to PALs if you want, but the future for the NHS and the care that you and I will receive in the future is in jeopardy because nurses are reaching the end of their tether.
Bravo!🌹 Thank you for writing what most of us are feeling. Out of my small team, 40 % are quitting nursing, as a direct result of the unimaginable pressures and demands placed upon us. I’ll continue, because I believe in the NHS. And in my patients. I have huge reservations about the management.
TheNavigator · 08/10/2020 19:19

I notice the poster who made that crass comment about having time to post on Mumsnet hasn't been back to confirm if they are a nurse...

Coronawireless · 08/10/2020 19:49

I’m not a nurse but I’m a frontline HCW.
In a hospital which would not tolerate the laxity mentioned by the OP.
I’m surprised at the defensiveness and petulance at such poor infection control practice being challenged by the many patients/visitors on this thread.
Thankfully not every hospital or nurse is like this but clearly, unfortunately, some are.

Hobnobsandbroomstick · 08/10/2020 20:18

@Coronawireless

So just a scenario for you; you're working in your frontline HCW role, and need to urgently escort a patient with covid from one area of the hospital to another area, a good 5 minute walk away. This patient has dementia, doesn't speak much English, and keeps trying to take their mask off. What do you do?

Coronawireless · 08/10/2020 21:04

Hi Hobnob. If it’s a relatively rare occurrence. then perhaps just keeping the patient as far away from everyone as possible may be the only option. Bearing in mind that if a Covid pt goes to X-ray etc, surely the room will have to be aired out afterwards so they should be taken there at the end of the day where possible (unless absolute emergency)so things may be quieter.
If your ward has a lot of patients like this (Covid +ve, demented, unable to wear a mask, needing an urgent trip out if their room), then management and IPC should have something in place. Separate entrances, Covid patients scheduled for a certain time of day etc.
If not, why not? Are other wards in the same boat? Could you put something in writing all together? If so and if management and IPC still not willing to come up with something, the hospital is putting a huge number of staff and vulnerable patients at risk. You are being out at risk too!
It really is totally unacceptable. If you’re not being supported, I do sympathise greatly.
The only way would be to put something in writing to your MP or newspaper...whistleblowing! But...you could lose your job for that...disgracefully so.
So difficult.

Hobnobsandbroomstick · 08/10/2020 22:33

If it’s a relatively rare occurrence. then perhaps just keeping the patient as far away from everyone as possible may be the only option.

It’s not a relatively rare occurrence in a large acute hospital during a pandemic.

Bearing in mind that if a Covid pt goes to X-ray etc, surely the room will have to be aired out afterwards so they should be taken there at the end of the day where possible (unless absolute emergency) so things may be quieter.

In my hospital we have green and red areas for x-ray. The room wouldn’t need to be “aired out” for a particular amount of time if a patient with covid had an x-ray, as an x-ray is not an aerosol generating procedure (AGP). If it was an AGP, then the amount of time it needed to be left empty before cleaning would depend on the rate of air changes per hour of that particular room, which would be assessed and documented by infection control and written up as a guideline. So for example in my hospital it varies from needing to wait 20, 5 or zero minutes after an AGP before doing any cleaning depending on the particular room. All patients are treated as potentially having covid when it comes to AGPs, so are all treated the same.

If your ward has a lot of patients like this (Covid +ve, demented, unable to wear a mask, needing an urgent trip out if their room), then management and IPC should have something in place. Separate entrances, Covid patients scheduled for a certain time of day etc.

I’m not based on a ward atm, but there are lots of patients who struggle with masks for various reasons. The hospital has separate red and green areas of A&E, x-ray, theatres, cardiac catheter labs, ICU, and all the wards are assigned as either red or green. Completely separate entrances and corridors for all departments are a bit tricky without rebuilding the hospital. In your example of needing a chest x-ray, we would just request a portable one to come to the ward. As a side note, I really hate the word "demented" to describe a person with dementia, sounds so dehumanising.

If not, why not? Are other wards in the same boat? Could you put something in writing all together? If so and if management and IPC still not willing to come up with something, the hospital is putting a huge number of staff and vulnerable patients at risk.

I’m happy with the current infection control guidelines at my hospital. They make logical sense. My scenario was just a realistic example of how sometimes the guidelines aren’t always followed to the absolute letter.

You previously said:
“I’m not a nurse but I’m a frontline HCW.
In a hospital which would not tolerate the laxity mentioned by the OP.
I’m surprised at the defensiveness and petulance at such poor infection control practice being challenged by the many patients/visitors on this thread.
Thankfully not every hospital or nurse is like this but clearly, unfortunately, some are.”

So naturally I was curious to see what your solution would be in the above scenario.

It really is totally unacceptable. If you’re not being supported, I do sympathise greatly.
The only way would be to put something in writing to your MP or newspaper...whistleblowing! But...you could lose your job for that...disgracefully so.
So difficult.

Whistle blow about what exactly? Following the infection control guidance as set out by Public Health England? If I had concerns about infection control guidelines not being followed in my area, my first port would be to speak to my manager and follow it up with an email so it was in writing, and then her manager, and then the matron of my department. If I was still failing to get anywhere, I’d contact the CQC. I wouldn’t go to a newspaper or my MP.

DameLucy · 08/10/2020 22:58

This has been interesting. It seems from comments received that it is totally me at fault and it’s absolutely appropriate to transport COVID patients in public lifts without masks secured properly. 🤷‍♀️ Ok I accept that nurses/medical practitioners have a hard job. For goodness sake, I was a nurse myself for 30 years. I chose that career and I loved the reward I got making the difference. I wasn’t an angel, I did it for the pay. Other people have hard jobs for goodness sake and to be honest I was always grateful that when I walked out of the hospital at the end of my shift I didn’t take the problems home with me as many of my friends and family did who did “ordinary jobs” . Yes nursing is difficult but for goodness sake it’s a job and we chose to do it. Even though I worked my job for all that time I sometimes feel ashamed at the arrogance of my peers. Take that however you like! My issue isn’t with nursing staff but the procedures put in place by the hospital to safeguard everyone in the hospital, be it staff, patients, visitors. I don’t want to complain about the staff member but the procedures in place.
This hospital has a bank of 6 lifts - 2 specifically for patient use. So why use one of the other 4 to transport a COVID patient?? Some have said visitors shouldn’t be in the hospital. That wasn’t my decision, so I visited. My father is 88 and I’m all he has! However if visiting was banned I wouldn’t have gone.So the patient in the wheelchair. It’s assumed by many that he suffered from dementia?? WTF are you psychic now??
AND for the rude person who suggested that I didn’t hear correctly - how bloody rude! I know what I heard. And so did the two ambulance personnel standing there with me, who were, in their words, Gobsmacked!

OP posts:
Coronawireless · 08/10/2020 23:38

Demented is a valid and accurate word and is not any more dehumanising than “has dementia”.
I didn’t specify chest X-ray. I’m sure you know what I meant about “going to X-ray”.
I meant, being taken anywhere outside the ward for a medical reason.
I know the OPs example would not have happened where I work, and if a patient or visitor reported that it did, it would be taken seriously.
I can’t comment on your hospital or its red and green areas or its policies as I don’t work there. So there’s no point in me commenting further on your hospital.
But a “red” patient, such as in the OPs example, should not have been in an enclosed, highly-frequented small space with no mask. Full stop. No excuses.
You say you would write to your Matron. I already said that if, after taking a hospital’s inadequate or poorly-followed guidelines (as in the OPs example) to management at its highest level your concerns are still not acted upon, and patients are being put at risk, then yes it would need to be taken outside the hospital or trust.

Inkpaperstars · 09/10/2020 02:25

I forgot to say OP, I hope your dad recovers well Flowers

Hobnobsandbroomstick · 09/10/2020 06:58

@Coronawireless

I know the OPs example would not have happened where I work.

That's good, but sounds like it's a situation that you wouldn't encounter, so you don't actually know that.

"Demented is a valid and accurate word and is not any more dehumanising than “has dementia”."

No, it is not. I have never heard any colleague use the word demented, it's outdated and offensive. If you look it up in the various dictionaries online it says "crazy, insane, mad" etc as the first definition, and then a few mention dementia (though not all). Hope you don't use it in your frontline HCW role. You might find the following interesting reading:

www.alzheimers.org.uk/blog/how-spot-and-challenge-negative-language-media

There's a link on there about with a guide to talking about dementia, where it says to avoid using the term demented.

Swipe left for the next trending thread