To think that one cannot be both a Catholic and a Feminist?

[applesauce1]

Inspired by another thread on here, my husband and I had a lively debate about this earlier. I think that a Catholic person cannot also be a Feminist for many reasons, but among these reasons, that an anti-abortion stance is an anti-woman stance.
My husband thinks that a Catholic could be pro-choice and therefore be a feminist, or that a feminist might also disagree with abortion.
He is a cultural Catholic (now atheist), and probably took this stance because he'd like to think that his mum is a feminist. In the end, we agreed to disagree. I think it is a black and white issue and he would like to think there are grey areas.
Do you think there's a way that someone can be a Catholic and also a feminist?

We definitely don’t agree on whether the feelings of ex Catholics matter, but that’s not an excuse for me being goads.

Goady!

There are pro-life feminist groups.

If you believe feminism means equality for men and women then I think it’s possible to be both feminist and pro-life. Only women can have babies so it’s not something that can really be compared to men as far as equality goes.

Well I’ve only read the last couple of pages. I’m a feminist, and that allows me complex and duality of thinking. Equally, non feminists can also think that way.

Anyhoo.

Yes, I’m a feminist and can also be a catholic. I think being divisive and non comprehending of the fact that others can take in other points of view makes life really hard. I try and just listen to others.

@applesauce1

*@gospelsinger** I don't agree that a late term abortion can be necessary to save a woman's life. A baby could be induced early at a risk to the baby's life, but still fight to save it if possible. * I'm sorry if this is rude, but are you a doctor? What is your evidence for saying this?

Late term abortions already use induction, at least usually, but they make sure the foetus is killed first. You can induce without that step, it's done sometimes.

In any case, yes, feminism generally doesn't insist on one set of conclusions on every social issue, there are all kinds of ways views can diverge within that framework. All kinds of advocacy recognise different areas where rights are balanced even if they take different view of how to do that, doing so is pretty ubiquitous. A heck of a lot of women don't believe in on demand abortion in the third trimester, if that's incompatible with feminism, feminism is simply not representing many, possibly most, women.
The objections of Catholicism to abortion are fairly straightforward really, they don't allow the killing of an innocent human being, and even non-innocent people in wars or in terms of criminal execution don't have a lot of leeway theologically. I don't find it that different than a serious pacifist thinking, or radical vegan approach, and people don't generally find those so strange.

Catholic’s believe they can’t actively kill anyone at whatever stage of life. They believe life starts at conception and that’s why abortion is considered a sin not just for the mother but for all the people involved. I’m not sure why that’s incompatible with feminism?

Oh hello bumbleymummy

Well this conversation is going to get even more fun now.

Not seen you for a while.

I am a Catholic and a feminist. It's not black and white like that.

The history of religion,, as everything else, was dominated by men so a lot of the doctrine and the ritual would be different if women had been involved from the start. I wish it were.

Because Catholics believe (or are taught) life begins at conception it would be hard for them to openly accept abortion though many Catholics do, particularly in situations where the woman is vulnerable or in danger. It is such a unique situation in life and because it's a woman's body that's affected it's a feminist issue but women have a right to choice over what happens to their body. Saying that you believe that the choice they make isn't the right one is not anti-feminist. Trying to force them to make a different decision against their will is not right but in reality most Catholics don't do this.i don't believe Jesus would have done this.

‘Catholic’s believe they can’t actively kill anyone at whatever stage of life. They believe life starts at conception and that’s why abortion is considered a sin not just for the mother but for all the people involved. I’m not sure why that’s incompatible with feminism?’

It isn’t contrary to feminism to not want to have an abortion. What would be more controversial would be actively fighting against other women being allowed to have them. I don’t think Catholicism compels people to actively fight against abortion, or if it does, failing to do so would not be the same severity of sin as actually having an abortion yourself.

I would imagine it would be considered a sin of omission. Having an abortion would be a mortal sin as would performing one.

Euthanasia and suicide are considered in the same way.

Itisbetter because it results in death, serious injury and trauma for women and girls all over the world, every year.

And the numbers are non trivial, talking 1000s of deaths.

Well yes, it’s not possible to have an abortion and not have it result in a death.

And this is where lots of women lose sympathy.

The lack of compassion for women and girls who are people who have lived, have parents, children, friends, loved ones. The coldness about the deaths, pain, injury. Children who have been born losing their mothers. The mother of a girl losing her child.

Interesting for some on the thread to read I'd have thought, I was taken aback when I first saw views like this on here.

Who is lacking compassion?

Catholic’s believe they can’t actively kill anyone at whatever stage of life. They believe life starts at conception and that’s why abortion is considered a sin not just for the mother but for all the people involved
Devout Catholics may. I don't think things are black or white for many Catholics.
The majority of 3rd trimester abortions are carried out due to birth defects or severe disability, it is not my place to judge anyone in this situation.
I support assisted end of life and gay marriage love is love.
Things have moved on the Pope and his crew need to catch up.

@Itisbetter

Catholic’s believe they can’t actively kill anyone at whatever stage of life. They believe life starts at conception and that’s why abortion is considered a sin not just for the mother but for all the people involved. I’m not sure why that’s incompatible with feminism?

For someone who doesn’t believe there is a God, how can you convince them that life starts at conception? They see cluster of cells before it become life.

The problem comes where the life that is growing inside a born, living person is more.important than the person it is growing in.

Thinking about it, and I've been on these threads a load of times and just realised.

If a woman or girl wants or needs or considers an abortion, she is thinking of murder. And as a potential murderer, her life becomes less important.

How does that square with the original sin thing though.

[quote applesauce1]@DonnaQuixotedelaManchester You're right in a way, but I'd say my knowledge of Catholicism is narrow rather than black and white. The responses on this thread have been really informative.
I'd never thought about myself as being black and white on my views on feminism, but for me, I don't really understand how anyone who is anti-abortion could be a feminist. I'm open to hearing opinions on this, though. I like to learn, hear the views of others and change my mind accordingly. [/quote]
I’m a feminist. I’m a Christian. I’m anti abortion in the sense that I believe it is very sad thing and that I wouldn’t have one in most circumstances. I’m pro choice in the sense that I believe in women making their own choices for their bodies, not my choice for their body.
In practice this means I believe in focusing my efforts at anything that helps women/men have best access to contraception, a welfare state and a level playing field for all children in health & education. I work for a society where no abortion happens because of rape, domestic abuse, poverty or lack of career protection.

I exercise my ‘anti abortion’ beliefs by being in a union that negotiates better maternity leave, protesting universal credit and voting Labour.

I don’t see my pro-life values as being incompatible with feminism but actually a motivator for it.

I imagine many catholic women have similar beliefs.

For someone who doesn’t believe there is a God, how can you convince them that life starts at conception? They see cluster of cells before it become life.

That's really a scientific question, and it's not controversial scientifically that life starts at conception. It is alive, and it's human. The question is what is the status of that life at that stage or later in the pregnancy - it is a person, does it have some limited recognition for it's status like an animal, or something else?

For someone who doesn’t believe there is a God, how can you convince them that life starts at conception? They see cluster of cells before it become life. surely basic biology shows the difference between something alive or dead. The cluster of cells thing is a vehicle to stepping away from this being a human however undeveloped.

*I don't think it's so much that as that too many people won't take the word of a child over that of an adult, especially a respected adult, particularly a man. It's also the case that it's a very uncomfortable subject and they prefer to bury it under the carpet than to bring it into the open.

It's also misogyny. This pastor told my friend that she was to blame because she hadn't been a good enough wife. (Tragically, my DM thinks this about herself.)*

True, those are crucial factors too.

I don’t see my pro-life values as being incompatible with feminism but actually a motivator for it.

I think you can be anti-abortion and feminist, if you believe in giving the pregnant woman all the necessary help and support to thrive with their child. The problem is our current set up doesn’t facilitate that.

Leaving aside the abortion question for a second, how would feminists sit comfortably with an organisation that excludes them entirely from its leadership structures and therefore policy making. Purely based on their sex.

Surely that’s just utterly incompatible?