To think that one cannot be both a Catholic and a Feminist?

[applesauce1]

Inspired by another thread on here, my husband and I had a lively debate about this earlier. I think that a Catholic person cannot also be a Feminist for many reasons, but among these reasons, that an anti-abortion stance is an anti-woman stance.
My husband thinks that a Catholic could be pro-choice and therefore be a feminist, or that a feminist might also disagree with abortion.
He is a cultural Catholic (now atheist), and probably took this stance because he'd like to think that his mum is a feminist. In the end, we agreed to disagree. I think it is a black and white issue and he would like to think there are grey areas.
Do you think there's a way that someone can be a Catholic and also a feminist?

I do think there comes a point where you can’t dissociate yourself from an organisation merely by claiming you don’t agree with some bits of it - “buffet Catholicism”

Whilst individual Catholics are obviously not condoning misogyny and child sexual abuse, the Church itself is making no serious moves to integrate women into church management and in many cases actively sheltered paedophiles within its ranks. How bad does it have to be before buffet/cultural Catholics say, actually, I’m not prepared to be called a Catholic because that means I’m associating with an organisation that doesn’t consider women to be fit leaders and is still refusing to engage with proper safeguarding for vulnerable people?

But then on this thread (or maybe the other one) there have been a few disparaging comments about feminists so maybe it makes sense from that perspective.

And I am a feminist.

OP sorry for jumping on you, but I have in the past felt pressurised by feminists to be fully pro-choice, in a 'no debate' kind of way. I think it is more complicated than that. For example
I hate reading on here of women who feel pressurised by their partners to get an abortion. Abortion is not always a woman's choice.
The sense of grief and loss experienced by some women following an abortion is real. I feel that feminism's pro-choice stance has tried to keep this quiet.
I don't agree that a late term abortion can be necessary to save a woman's life. A baby could be induced early at a risk to the baby's life, but still fight to save it if possible. I don't understand why this is used to campaign for abortion.
I dont like it when women are criticised on MN for 'choosing to have children with this man'
However, I would not want to stop a woman who was sure she needed an abortion from having one in the early stages of pregnancy. I'm open to reasonable debate about how women can be best supported by legislation and society. I don't think the black and white nature of abortion arguments really do this.

You don't choose to participate in being British, if you are born in Britain you are British. if you are born a catholic you are a catholic unless you leave, a bit like emigrating. And POI if you are born to British parents you are British otherwise since 1984 you apply like any other immigrant.

I don't know why anyone would choose to support an organisation:

That raped thousands of children.
Covered up the rapes of thousands of children
Killed a lot of children
Abused many children in reformatory schools
And also tells women they are inferior?

I think you need to have a good hard look at yourself, if you choose to support that.

I was watching a documentary about the Jonestown cult, which started out as a church, and it said that in the cult:

The reverent Jim jones would make the men have sex with him
He raped the women
He beat up children.
He made people hand over all their salaries.

And yet people chose to stay with him, and take all that abuse, and see all that abuse of others, because he was doing it under the guise of a church.

It is scary how much abuse people will allow, if it is done under a "church"

And yet people continue to support government here and all around the world, despite it doing exactly that.

Interestingly, since having DS my own (pro choice) position on abortion has altered. I remain resolutely pro choice, anti protests near abortion clinics etc. But, having had a baby, I feel very differently about abortion now. It’s very conflicting, and I understand why many view it harshly.

This is how I feel and common amongst both my Christian and atheist friends.

I feel the opposite. Having been through the misery of pregnancy I am much more pro choice than I was before I realised what pregnancy was really like.

@Stripesnomore I don't support the government. I am always saying that there is no need for governments at all.

However, I can't change that by.myself.

Incidentally, did the UK government kill a huge amount of children? Are they on the same level as what the Catholic church did?

Mass graves in Galway people. They are there with lots of children's bodies.That was the Catholic church

I think we are all culpable in allowing the abuse to go on. What were the police doing while children were treated so? Why do we expect the church to have policed itself? Why was that allowed?

I couldn’t tell you, based on the proportion of people they control, who has abused or killed more, the Catholic Church or the British Government.

I do know that very few people are prepared to organise their lives without large institutions, and so safeguarding is going to be of upmost importance.

I had a very angsty lecturer at uni who was a Catholic and a feminist her whole thing was around the sexism built into Christianity. She was kidding herself about feminism and catholoism. I'm not convinced you could buy into any of the traditional monotheistic schools of patriarchy as a feminist.

I'm a cultural catholic and feminist. I manage this by not over thinking the Catholicism.

I'm Catholic
I'm Pro-choice
I'm a feminist
I don't need to justify any of my choices to others.

It’s very much part of the belief system of current activists that if we chuck out all of the old institutions and traditions then we don’t have any culpability for what went on and get some kind of fresh start.

I suspect what will happen is that we will fail to learn and repeat the same mistakes. Maybe we’ll just keep on having historic abuse investigations constantly without ever applying our concerns to the present.

@Stripesnomore
I feel the same as you. Since having my own baby, and nearly dying in the process, I am more convinced than ever before that women should have the right to decide whether or not to continue a pregnancy. It is not that I wish that I had not had my own baby! It is that the dangers of birth and the irrevocable changes on a woman's body are huge reasons why women should be able to make their own choices about whether to put their own bodies through that.

Yes, it is not as black and white as all that RE late term legislation. But women should have a choice and autonomy over their own bodies.

Yes, applesauce. I didn’t have an experience anywhere near as serious as yours, nor has it had extreme consequences for my body. But it was still arduous and has left my body permanently changed. Nobody should be forced through that.

what is going on in the Catholic church to improve it?

Are there any internal investigations

*@gospelsinger
I don't agree that a late term abortion can be necessary to save a woman's life. A baby could be induced early at a risk to the baby's life, but still fight to save it if possible.
*
I'm sorry if this is rude, but are you a doctor? What is your evidence for saying this?

@Sarahpaula

what is going on in the Catholic church to improve it?

Are there any internal investigations

Do you mean internal investigations into individual claims of abuse, or internal investigations into how the church handled abuse more generally, or internal investigations into broader related issues like safeguarding responsibilities, or general internal discussions on things people disagree about?

what is going on in the Catholic church to improve it?
Are there any internal investigations

Yes.

I’m a catholic and a feminist. I had an abortion- it was the worst decision of my life (pressured into it by my STBXH) and not the right thing for me , but I am pro choice for other women.