To think that one cannot be both a Catholic and a Feminist?

[applesauce1]

Inspired by another thread on here, my husband and I had a lively debate about this earlier. I think that a Catholic person cannot also be a Feminist for many reasons, but among these reasons, that an anti-abortion stance is an anti-woman stance.
My husband thinks that a Catholic could be pro-choice and therefore be a feminist, or that a feminist might also disagree with abortion.
He is a cultural Catholic (now atheist), and probably took this stance because he'd like to think that his mum is a feminist. In the end, we agreed to disagree. I think it is a black and white issue and he would like to think there are grey areas.
Do you think there's a way that someone can be a Catholic and also a feminist?

'She supported paedophilia'

Righty ho.

I'm well aware of what went on. To single her out and state that she supported paedophilia is really out of line.

All the men of the left who got sucked in by PIE and etc no mention.

It's fascinating that on this thread someone has randomly brought a woman who is a feminist into at and said she is in favour of paedophilia.

Anyway one for another thread.

Always a woman to blame at the bottom of things though isn't there.

Now where I have heard that before... Someone beginning with E I think it was

but I don't understand how someone could be anti-choice but still a feminist
Neither do I as a pro choice buffet style RC.
I find anti-choice thinking backwards.
It's not your body.
I understand medical staff's hands were tied pre referendum.
My cousin nearly died of sepsis during early pregnancy they held off intervening using antibiotics until she miscarried.

‘All the men of the left who got sucked in by PIE and etc no mention.’

They are not feminists, so not relevant to my experiences of other feminists while being a feminist.

I am well aware of the ongoing problem of men on the left continuing to support the abuse and exploitation of women and children.

Catholicism is a religion of conscience. People are not conscripts into following rules.
The way some people define feminism on mumsnet makes it sound like a club where only if you follow the rules can you join.

There are dozens of branches of feminism. Some specifically developed within religious communities.

While Catholicism has long had the goal of being universal, that's why it has that name, it really isn't and there is wide variety in adherence to doctrine and the amount of power the Vatican actually holds. We're at that time of year again where occasionally the Vatican denounces certain Mexican Catholic saints and traditions as heretical and few really care.

Some branches of feminism are incompatible with each other, even without religion being involved, and some branches of feminism are incompatible with official Catholic doctrine. Either as a whole, the billion+ people involved, isn't something anyone could make a judgement on without ignoring many factors involved.

Also, the whole 'Catholics have done all these shitty things' - so has every institution, and the reasons some who want to abuse others go to the Catholic church is for the same reason they go into any institution that gives people power and trust.

Catholic child abuse is more heard about because they're huge, there isn't really any evidence that comparative to size that they do it more often than similar groups though people these days seem to take it far more seriously than similar tactics being used by other organizations. We have doctors who sexually assault and rape patients, across age ranges, and sometimes medical institutions pull the same shit of circling around. It's an power in organization thing, not a Catholic thing.

I'd describe myself as both a Catholic and a feminist. That by no means suggests I believe in every teaching of the church, but it's ethos wholly supports my feminism.

I fail to understand why you think I couldn't possibly be both?

@applesauce1

*@gospelsinger** I don't agree that a late term abortion can be necessary to save a woman's life. A baby could be induced early at a risk to the baby's life, but still fight to save it if possible. * I'm sorry if this is rude, but are you a doctor? What is your evidence for saying this?

No women believe in abortion in late term abortion. However it is done for medical reasons. If you ask these women why they had it done, you will see that it is never because they want to. It is because they were faced with a difficult decision.

And yes , a dead , or severely deformed baby can be toxic to a mother’s body, causing her to be ill. The baby can’t be saved

I know a couple of very feminist Catholics. One is a consultant with one child, very career driven. She understands abortion despite finding it very difficult to think about. She believes in women having choices and given equal opportunities to men.

Maybe it's less common in very religious people generally. There are issues with the Catholic Church in itself, but there are varying degrees to which you can believe and think of women.

if you are born a catholic you are a catholic unless you leave, a bit like emigrating.

Even if you don’t believe?

"No women believe in abortion in late term abortion. However it is done for medical reasons. If you ask these women why they had it done, you will see that it is never because they want to. It is because they were faced with a difficult decision."

This exactly. I don't think you'll meet a person on Earth who "believes" in late term abortion. Shaming women who have had to undergo a procedure like this by saying there was another option that could have saved their baby is horrible.

I would generally agree, but depends on your definition. There was an interesting article in politico about Amy Coney Barrett that tried flipping the definition on its head. Seemed a stretch but since I love Catholicism I'm trying to see it! www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/09/27/amy-coney-barrett-supreme-court-nominee-feminist-icon-422059

Well not believing would mean you weren’t part of the church. It’s not a club.

Even if you don’t believe you are still considered a Catholic by the church for the purposes of marriage.

Catholicism isn’t simply a matter of belief. You can’t just say you believe in Catholicism and that makes you a Catholic.

I'm Catholic. I despair sometimes at the Church, because I believe God would not make people homosexual if He wished them to remain celibate, that would be cruel. If God is a loving father then He wouldn't do that.

I think that the people who wrote the Bible were men of their time - human, and flawed, as we all are. They took prevailing social attitudes and added them to God's teaching.

I still abortion is killing a child, but I don't believe it should be restricted more than it is - it's not my place to police other people's bodies. I also think that TFMR is sometimes a blessing, saving the child and parents pain and suffering. I also think it's not my place to judge a woman who terminates because she's unable to bear a a child due to mental distress, rape, incest or any one of a thousand reasons. I struggle with terminations for social reasons, but it's not right to restrict abortion because any restriction will mean those who really need it might be denied.

The Church desperately needs change, but I believe it will better come from within than without. I'm pushing for it as hard as I can.

@Tootletum
Here is an extract from that article that I'd like to challenge:
"In this new feminism, sexual equality is found not in imitating men’s capacity to walk away from an unexpected pregnancy through abortion, but rather in asking men to meet women at a high standard of mutual responsibility, reciprocity and care."

1. From what I understand, having an abortion is not "walking away from an unwanted pregnancy". It is a significant medical procedure. The after effects of an abortion range in their severity. Likening the decision of going through an abortion to "walking away from an unwanted pregnancy like a man" is reductive and offensive.

1. Men cannot equal the responsibility of care for those 9 months because it is the woman who would be forced to physically incubate the baby and then give birth, which rarely goes without some kind of lasting physical side effects.

Catholicism isn’t simply a matter of belief. You can’t just say you believe in Catholicism and that makes you a Catholic. I think that’s probably IS what makes you a catholic. What is The Creed if not the recitation of what it is to be catholic?

‘I think that’s probably IS what makes you a catholic. What is The Creed if not the recitation of what it is to be Catholic’

It’s a creed.

Membership of the Catholic Church is through the sacraments - through baptism and then communion (and later confirmation).

You can’t just announce you are a Catholic. As an adult you would have to complete lessons and be accepted into the church through the sacraments.

It’s kind of weird how the biggest organisation in the world is having its membership compared to a club, as if that is what would be the benchmark of what constitutes membership.

@Stripesnomore ah I see what you mean. Yes there are formal things you must do to be accepted into the church, but you obviously can’t be a catholic if you no longer believe. Is that clearer?

Catholics are more catholic (did you see what I did there?) than other parts of the Christian church. I was brought up CoS (so Calvinist and Presbyterian) and obviously knew Wee Frees so this idea that you pick and choose from your churches teachings (as all the Catholic's in DH's family do) is a complete anathema to the religion of my childhood.

‘but you obviously can’t be a catholic if you no longer believe. Is that clearer?’

But that isn’t the case. The church removed the right to leave the church in 2006.

You may believe that not believing makes someone not a Catholic. That is not the belief of either the Catholic Church or people who want to formally leave and are no longer allowed to. All you are allowed to do is register a statement that you wish to leave.

what exactly do you think it means that you cannot leave??? They don’t lock you in and force you to reconciliation.

Can someone private message me the full list of criteria for being a feminist? I’d love to be one but I’m worried I won’t pass all the tests.