To call the school to complain DD not allowed to use toilet in class time

[BananaLlamaConCalma]

DD is 9/year 4.

They are allowed/encouraged to have a flask on their desk and drink throughout the day. DD appears to have necked hers today and needed a wee. She asked the teacher if she could go to the toilet. He said no, you can't go in class time. She asked again a little while later terrified she was going to have an accident. He again said no. She started crying as she thought she would have an accident in front of the class. She was then allowed to go.

I agree that children shouldn't waste time and did say to her that she should learn from this to drink an appropriate amount for the time but why is she not allowed a wee in lesson times? We were! She has said previously she holds it in all day. Didn't realise this was why. Also, what if she had her period? I know other girls who have started at that age!

So do I call him and say it's unfair and if she needs a wee she is to go or just leave it?

@Calligraphy572

Obviously children going to the loo disrupts their learning and the learning of others. So most teachers prefer that children wait until break or lunch. It can't be hard to imagine that some children will try it on and that one child getting 'special treatment' means others want the same. So as a teacher, you have to balance not wanting to miss a genuine need with not wanting to indulge those who fancy a wander round the corridor.

So when a child asks, I say 'It's XX minutes until break. I would prefer that you wait, but if it's an emergency, off you go.' So they know they can go if they really need to. And everyone needs to every so often. So far, no tears and no accidents!

@Calligraphy572

A really sensible approach. 👏

@BananaLlamaConCalma

Did you contact the school? How did it go?

Going to the toilet should be a human right, none of this 'wait until break' thing. Even worse if they're encouraged to have drinks on their desks. What do the teachers think is going to happen?

I think it's fair to only let one child go at a time, but I would imagine primary school aged kids ask to go because they need to go. High school is another matter!

Not yet @EarringsandLipstick

I started a new job this week and it's really full on so finding the time where the teacher is at the school and I am able to talk is nigh on impossible. I might use the class dojo app. I'm thinking how to word it.

Reasons some children want to go to the toilet during the day...

1- to get out of tidying up
(I ask them to tidy up and then ask again- they generally don't as they didn't really need to go, they just wanted to get out of tidying up!)

2- to get out of work
(I ask them to finish a word/ calculation/ listening to an instruction first / they generally don't ask again as they didn't really need to go)

3 - to chat to their friends
(I ask them to wait until their friend has returned from the toilet before they can go)

4- they fancy a change of scenery
(Distraction often but also I might just let them go to stretch their legs if it's a convenient time)

I know my class well and know who to let go immediately and who is trying to get out of something.

I always remind children to go at break times and explain that by being too long they are missing important lesson time but would never refuse a child who needed the toilet and asked more than once.

I teach key stage one and that strategy works for all of our classes.

As someone with interstitial cystitis this makes me angry beyond words. Even aside from that, I can’t tell you how much my water in/water out (and exertion) mechanism is not in sync at least half the time. I can’t imagine denying somebody the use of the toilet at any age.

@fastandthecurious

I've always found this so so weird. Never have I worked in a job where I had to hold my urine till my break time. Why should young children have to? As long as they aren't taking the pods and going every 30 mins I don't see the problem with allowing a child to use the bathroom when they need to.

You've not worked on a supermarket checkout or in a school? Or driven a bus?

Here's what happens in a school environment.

Child 1 needs a wee.
Child 2 hears this and decides they need a wee, too.
Child 3 doesn't fancy doing the work, so says they need a wee.
Child 4 then needs a wee and goes on an exploratory mission with Child 5 and 6 down the corridors.

If you take this to secondary level, you get romantic assignations scheduled for 30 minutes past the hour, somebody topping up on the spliff they've had concealed behind the cistern, maybe taking the opportunity to pick up from somebody in another class. Somebody decides to block the sinks with paper towels or toilet paper and leave the water running. Another decides this is the time they do a Steve McQueen and go over the fence to get out of detention.

Reasons some children want to go to the toilet during the day...

1- to get out of tidying up
(I ask them to tidy up and then ask again- they generally don't as they didn't really need to go, they just wanted to get out of tidying up!)

2- to get out of work
(I ask them to finish a word/ calculation/ listening to an instruction first / they generally don't ask again as they didn't really need to go)

3 - to chat to their friends
(I ask them to wait until their friend has returned from the toilet before they can go)

4- they fancy a change of scenery
(Distraction often but also I might just let them go to stretch their legs if it's a convenient time)

I know my class well and know who to let go immediately and who is trying to get out of something.

I always remind children to go at break times and explain that by being too long they are missing important lesson time but would never refuse a child who needed the toilet and asked more than once.

I teach key stage one and that strategy works for all of our classes
I teach secondary and take a very similar approach.

Add in:
5- they ask to go to the toilet as you're packing away because it means they can get out of a bit of next lesson and tell their next teacher that you gave them permission to be ridiculously late (tell them I'll dismiss then promptly to go quickly on the way to next lesson or they can ask their next teacher)

We get to know our classes well.

@unmarkedbythat

Although based on this thread, clearly our human right to go to the toilet at the very second we want to should trump our safeguarding responsibilities as teachers.

Refusing to allow a child to use a toilet when they need to could very well be raised as a safeguarding concern. That it would be so dangerous for a child to be in your school's corridors and/ or toilets outside of break times would be a concern in itself, and one your SLT should address sooner rather than later.

I hate it when people misuse 'safeguarding' to excuse poor practise.

I hate it when people's comprehension skills are so lamentably poor but what can you do?

Just to reassure you, though, since you're struggling, the conditions in our corridors are fine. I was actually pointing out the safeguarding issues that might arise if the teachers began exercising their "human right" to go to the toilet whenever they wished, thus leaving their classes unsupervised.

I will occasionally say no to a child going to the loo if they’re going to miss a crucial part of my input. However I generally let them go whenever they want - even if I think they might be avoiding work a bit. If going and standing in the toilet cubicle next to my classroom for 2 minutes gives them a brain refresh then fine (with my particular group of children this is workable).

@BananaLlamaConCalma

Good luck with the new job & thinking of your response. No harm to think it through

I hope your DD is ok 💐

I tend to ask if they can hold it until after I have finished input. Normally they can and if they can't they can go very quickly and I usually say I'm timing them to make them not waste time. If I notice a child repeatedly needing to go in lessons I grab them towards the end of break and get them to go (younger children) . I also dont let more than one child to go at a time. I dont like a blanket ban on going to the toilet for children but some children will take the opportunity to chat to friends or make a mess. You need a balance.

@JustMeAndMyTins

As someone with interstitial cystitis this makes me angry beyond words. Even aside from that, I can’t tell you how much my water in/water out (and exertion) mechanism is not in sync at least half the time. I can’t imagine denying somebody the use of the toilet at any age.

You'd probably be a bit concerned if your DC were left unattended whilst the teacher nipped to the toilet, your doctor/nurse/dentist left you in the room alone mid examination/treatment to go to the toilet, your train was delayed, meaning you missed your connection, because a driver in the train ahead had to stop between stations or the bus driver stopped to get out and have a pee in the nearest supermarket whilst you're trying to get to a hospital appointment or work, though.

A child in that position gets to go whenever they need to.

As do those with continence issues, sickle cell, kidney conditions where they have to drink more than usual and anything else where they do not have the physical ability or it is medically inadvisable to wait until the end of the lesson/breaktime. And girls who have started their periods.

@MitziK Actually, I would assume those people have chosen their careers with the comfort of knowing that they have a better bladder than I do. The same as I know it's not a great idea for me to do those jobs. So your point is a bit irrelevant really - not least because they aren't children or at school...

School and the way it is structured - as I remember - was not optional. So nobody can avoid it. And children often don't yet have bodily control as good as adults!

A child who has been taught to do as they are told, not challenge a teacher's instructions or that 'no means no' will probably be too afraid to ask a second or third time.

Children should be encouraged to go at break time but allowed to go if needed during class time. Anything else will lead to accidents and humiliation.

I had loads of accidents at school because teachers wouldn't let me go to the toilet. I wish I'd been more confident to go when I needed to. It's a basic human right to have a piss when you need it. I still pee alot and I will be teaching my child that you ask to go the toilet as a politeness, no one has the right to decide when you are allowed to avoid your bladder for their convenience.

When I was at school, I used to ask and got told no. In the end, I would just go without asking. Might get told off, but at least I felt more comfortable.

I tell my kids to just go, fucking power trip some people have.

This happened to my Dd in year 1, she asked to go and was told repeatedly no, she then had an accident and due to how she was spoken to she did not tell anyone for the rest of the day (very shy child who wouldn’t make a fuss) I approached the school and the head spoke to me. They had a meeting with teachers and lunchtime staff etc to explain the importance of allowing children to use the toilet and it was not to happen again, it was taken very seriously, I would try and speak with them but atm I do think it’s harder as it is a message not a quiet word.

This makes me so angry and is completely unjustifiable on all sorts of levels.

I would be teaching her to,whilst remaining polite, ignore the teacher and go anyway in those circumstances. I would also put it in writing to the head of this intent.

I just think it’s a waste of time complaining and I would be annoyed if I were the teacher and a parent came to me bothering me with this. It’s not a surprise someone will need the toilet after they have necked a whole flask of water. It would certainly be a hindrance if the entire class decided to do the same.

Have some human compassion. And wait until you're older and possibly need the loo at the drop of a hat and you can't go and are petrified you'll piss yourself in public.

Sure, she shouldn't have needed the loo knowing the rules. But it's in a school with a teacher: it's a teachable moment for the whole class. She shouldn't have had to cry to be allowed to go. The teacher probably should say no first time, then have noticed the desparation when she asked again and let her go.

And then reminded the class of the rules. But i would also complain to the school because making a child cry in class is not appropriate ever.

In year 4 they have a maximum of 2 hours between scheduled breaks, unless there's a medical issue kids can go two hours. I can see the teachers point of view.

In these circs, I would drop the teacher a note along these lines
" I understand that dc was upset following being initially being not allowed to nip to the loo. I understand the issues that multiple children asking can cause and havr discussed not drinking excessively. If you have any concerns that she is asking for other reasons, I would be very happy to discuss these with her. Meanwhile, she has promised me to only ask when she can't wait."

Contact ERIC they are very good and knowledgable about children’s rights as far as toilets go.